Comment Archive
< The Comment Log
~"That twist on Killing Joke here? EXCELLENT! Best version of Barbara's paralysis since Young Justice: Phantoms! Finally, people aren't doing Barbara dirty anymore!"
Thank you! We wound up doing something similar to the death of Alex DeWitt; it turns out that these stories absolutely have room in them for characters to suffer tragic consequences... the character in question just needs to actually have agency in the story that LEADS to those consequences.
~"What does Eileen do after Barbara moves to Gotham?"
That's a good question! (Thank you for getting on board with our idea to change Barbara Gordon's mom's name and use her middle name instead, by the way.) The reality of course is that she just leaves the story for the time being until someone decides to write her back in for one reason or another, and at that time they would come up with what she's been up to.
There are a few stories that have made proposals in this regard; none of which we’ve felt particularly compelled to adapt. Personally, I just imagine that she's been living as a socialite and actress in Europe, something befitting someone who was selfish enough to not really be a part of her daughter's life.
There are a few stories that have made proposals in this regard; none of which we’ve felt particularly compelled to adapt. Personally, I just imagine that she's been living as a socialite and actress in Europe, something befitting someone who was selfish enough to not really be a part of her daughter's life.
~"Is the Jim Corrigan who killed Crispus related to Jim Corrigan Spectre?"
I can’t speak for everyone that was reading Gotham Central when it was being published, but when a new character Jim Corrigan showed up *I* certainly though we were being set up to get a new Spectre somehow. Despite the fact that he DOES wind up leading to a new Spectre inasmuch as he kills Crispus Allen, who goes on to become the new Spectre, he himself does not have any canon connection to the original Jim Corrigan. (He also has no connection to ANOTHER character named Jim Corrigan, a recurring black police officer in Jimmy Olsen comics, who first showed up in the 70s, and as recently as the Matt Fraction series.)
~"In the comics, Wildcat apparently has nine lives which is the source of his longevity. I assume this is something you chose to remove deliberately?"
This is a fun question, because answering it kind of highlights some features of how we approach this stuff. The character of course wasn't concieved with this feature, right? He was just a boxer dressed up in a cool Bill Finger costume. He didn't need to have his longevity explained until after the first Crisis, when all of a sudden those classic Earth 2 heroes were now understood to be WWII era veterans and if anyone wanted to use them, we needed to know why they were still kicking.
So, given that we aren't doing any of that, the technically correct answer to your question is no, we DIDN'T remove Wildcat's nine lives, because the version of the character we're adapting never had it to begin with :)
So, given that we aren't doing any of that, the technically correct answer to your question is no, we DIDN'T remove Wildcat's nine lives, because the version of the character we're adapting never had it to begin with :)
~"Would you ever do a page for The Order of Saint Dumas?"
Yeah, I think we might. We don't have one planned currently, but the Order does touch our timeline enough currently, both in Jean Paul Valley & Mark Shaw's stories, that I think it could justify a timeline of its own.
Once we finish the current round of black book timelines, our focus is going to be on finishing the page updates for everyone currently on the site. There's a list of new ideas for stories and characters that we'll probably keep peppering in through that period. I think I could see the Order getting added to that list.
Once we finish the current round of black book timelines, our focus is going to be on finishing the page updates for everyone currently on the site. There's a list of new ideas for stories and characters that we'll probably keep peppering in through that period. I think I could see the Order getting added to that list.
~"Are you fully replacing Terry McGinnis with Luke Fox?"
Well, in a sense, yes?
The reality is we were never planning on adapting any of Batman Beyond to our timeline. It's a great show that we all love, of course, but we don't really do future continuity here. Personally I always feel like once you start plotting what the later events of your characters lives will be, you take away their agency in the current moment. We are, of course, setting up characters and stories so they can pay off later, and we have stories set in the distant future of the Legion, but we very specifically don't do future continuity, so you weren't ever going to see Terry anyway.
But part of what we all really liked about our take on Batwing was that it allowed us to draw thematically on those Batman Beyond stories. It's not a direct replacement, we're not suggesting that we start transposing a bunch of Spider-Man villain analogs over to Neo-Gotham, but we just all thought it was cool that we could create space for this version of Gotham that seems to crop up on so many places.
The reality is we were never planning on adapting any of Batman Beyond to our timeline. It's a great show that we all love, of course, but we don't really do future continuity here. Personally I always feel like once you start plotting what the later events of your characters lives will be, you take away their agency in the current moment. We are, of course, setting up characters and stories so they can pay off later, and we have stories set in the distant future of the Legion, but we very specifically don't do future continuity, so you weren't ever going to see Terry anyway.
But part of what we all really liked about our take on Batwing was that it allowed us to draw thematically on those Batman Beyond stories. It's not a direct replacement, we're not suggesting that we start transposing a bunch of Spider-Man villain analogs over to Neo-Gotham, but we just all thought it was cool that we could create space for this version of Gotham that seems to crop up on so many places.
~"Unpopular opinion. I like him better as a great white..."
Obviously, this is from King Shark's page. I don't know how unpopular this opinion is, though? I think MOST people prefer him as a Great White? In fact, I was pretty sure that even I said that on the page? Maybe I need to rewrite that so it's clearer, but you are not alone, sister!
~"please add wonderbat as a ship it is so cute and cool"
We do have a few ships sprinkled through the project, don't we?
Believe it or not, we've gone on at LENGTH in the Discord about Diana's romantic history. We're all sort of on the same page about the Wonder Woman / Batman relationship; it was fun in the Justice League animated series, but in practice it isn't really fair to either character. Personally, I think Diana is absolutely human enough to be aware that she's ATTRACTED to both Clark and Bruce? But she's also self-aware enough to recognize that one of them is completely spoken for in a way she would never dream of disrupting, and the other one, despite being one of the most tactically brilliant minds on the planet, is clearly also an emotionally stunted child.
Believe it or not, we've gone on at LENGTH in the Discord about Diana's romantic history. We're all sort of on the same page about the Wonder Woman / Batman relationship; it was fun in the Justice League animated series, but in practice it isn't really fair to either character. Personally, I think Diana is absolutely human enough to be aware that she's ATTRACTED to both Clark and Bruce? But she's also self-aware enough to recognize that one of them is completely spoken for in a way she would never dream of disrupting, and the other one, despite being one of the most tactically brilliant minds on the planet, is clearly also an emotionally stunted child.
~"Out of curiosity is there any plan to use coagula or other aspects of the pollack doom patrol? it doesn't quite hit the peaks of morrison's run but i think it's a brilliant run nonetheless with some landmark representation, and i'd be really curious to hear if you've got plans there."
Boy, do we!
There actually was a version of Kate Godwin in our timeline once upon a time, but it wasn't super well thought out, and when we did a big rewrite updating them to bring them all much more in line with the Morrison Patrol, it was clear our take just didn't quite work anymore. I'd always intended to come back to her eventually, but there were some things about her I just couldn't quite get to work.
This is actually when I first met Crackpot, the person responsible for the character sprites that we've been adding to the site. They're a big Pollack fan and really took me to task to get her right. It took a WHILE, but we now have a fully updated timeline for our version of Kate, and not to toot my own horn, but it is really good :)
So stay tuned, you'll be seeing her!
There actually was a version of Kate Godwin in our timeline once upon a time, but it wasn't super well thought out, and when we did a big rewrite updating them to bring them all much more in line with the Morrison Patrol, it was clear our take just didn't quite work anymore. I'd always intended to come back to her eventually, but there were some things about her I just couldn't quite get to work.
This is actually when I first met Crackpot, the person responsible for the character sprites that we've been adding to the site. They're a big Pollack fan and really took me to task to get her right. It took a WHILE, but we now have a fully updated timeline for our version of Kate, and not to toot my own horn, but it is really good :)
So stay tuned, you'll be seeing her!
~"I can't find any source that said Vandal Savage was the one to force the Doom Patrol to choose to die. Can you give me a volume where it happened?"
When I got this comment, I shared it in the Discord Server with the comment "I think they finally caught me.", and the first response I got was "They've got you there, I'm surprised you got away with it for this long."
The reason you don't have a source for it is because it didn't happen. The villains responsible for the deaths of the Doom Patrol (famously in issue #121 of the original Doom Patrol series from 1968) were Madame Rouge & General Zahl. We don't always adhere to the original comic canon, as I'm sure you've noticed. In this case, we'd already introduced the idea that Vandal Savage was a core enemy of the DP by taking over the role usually filled by General Immortus. Once we did that, we just decided to make him responsible for their deaths.
Because we liked the idea, and no one can stop us.
The reason you don't have a source for it is because it didn't happen. The villains responsible for the deaths of the Doom Patrol (famously in issue #121 of the original Doom Patrol series from 1968) were Madame Rouge & General Zahl. We don't always adhere to the original comic canon, as I'm sure you've noticed. In this case, we'd already introduced the idea that Vandal Savage was a core enemy of the DP by taking over the role usually filled by General Immortus. Once we did that, we just decided to make him responsible for their deaths.
Because we liked the idea, and no one can stop us.
~"Is the apocalypse cult that gives Jane her powers the Cult of The Unwritten Book? Or is it something else? (Also as I’m writing this I just noticed the little pixel art of Jane, cute!)"
~"Wait now I’m noticing (almost) everyone has a pixel micro! Does it help keep track of who’s on teams at certain times?"
There aren't specific plans for just what that Cult is, at the moment. It wasn't originally invented as being Doom Patrol related, it was just an apocalyptic event that the Shadowpact needed to stop. It was only when looking to define our version of Jane's origin that we came up with associating her with this event... although it certainly COULD be the Cult of the Unwritten Book, right?
And yes, we started doing the pixel sprites this year! One of my best new friends from the Discord Server, Crackpot, would often share their sprites to help illustrate the different team lineups. I asked Crackpot how he got into it: "It started off as me wanting to visualize the Kingdom, since I thought that was such a fun-sounding team with almost zero art assets, and it grew from there."
They just has such a fantastic visual language that I felt like tied the whole project together. I spend a while working with them so that they can start making sprites for the whole site. They're basically working their way down a massive checklist, and of course, remember, this is a hobby for everyone involved, so they'll only be added as they're able to finish them, but you should be able to see more sprites added with every update!
And yes, we started doing the pixel sprites this year! One of my best new friends from the Discord Server, Crackpot, would often share their sprites to help illustrate the different team lineups. I asked Crackpot how he got into it: "It started off as me wanting to visualize the Kingdom, since I thought that was such a fun-sounding team with almost zero art assets, and it grew from there."
They just has such a fantastic visual language that I felt like tied the whole project together. I spend a while working with them so that they can start making sprites for the whole site. They're basically working their way down a massive checklist, and of course, remember, this is a hobby for everyone involved, so they'll only be added as they're able to finish them, but you should be able to see more sprites added with every update!
~"I hope Kara gets a supporting cast of his own"
The organization of the Supporting Cast pages is one of the things I've spent way too much time trying to make organic when laying out the website. It's never as cut and dry as you want it to be, and one of the complications has always been supporting characters who have supporting characters of their own. Kara is, and will always be, part of the Superman Family. So while she absolutely does have her own supporting characters (Her roommate Nia Nal, for example, is 100% a SUPERGIRL character), for the purposes of our website we're just going to keep them both under Superman Supporting Characters and trust that you'll be able to work out the difference.
~"I was reading over the Psycho-Pirate suggestion for J'onn again and it got me thinking that he'd actually make for a really good "human face" of sorts for the cosmic demonic cataclysm that Grundy, Kent, Kendra, Arthur and Adam face, because for me at least whenever I think of Psycho-Pirate I always think of his insane ramblings about Crisis in Arkham before anything else, and I could easily see this event leaving him in a similar state, especially considering how Icthultu was directly ripped from Lovecraft and Lovecraft stories often involve someone being left in a state of total madness like that."
That would certainly be interesting. I particularly like how this actually mirrors Johnny Sorrow, another human avatar of a Lovecraftian Horror whose powers are yellow mask-based? Whenever we start creating new stories for characters I'm always nervous about just fully reinventing them into something new and unrelated, but this doesn't actually necessarily conflict with what's already there...
We still don't quite have a complete idea of just what his actual deal is, and we still haven't really connected him in any way to Martian Manhunter, have we? Still, these are some interesting ideas to the stew as we consider ways this character might someday work.
We still don't quite have a complete idea of just what his actual deal is, and we still haven't really connected him in any way to Martian Manhunter, have we? Still, these are some interesting ideas to the stew as we consider ways this character might someday work.
~"I and many others want her alive ,noot dead.there is room for Korugar's Finest AND her millenial sucessor as living heroes who both participate in today's DC storylines-Katma need not be a GREEN or BLACK lantern necessarily,or from the same universe as Hal or John."
This comment was on Katma Tui's page. I've commented on this specific topic before, and yes, I totally get why a person might want to keep her around. That's totally valid, and I encourage you to do so in your fan timeline. In ours, we think her death is an important part of the overall lore of the Green Lanterns.
Also... maybe I shouldn't comment on this, but "I and many others" is such a funny way to start your comment. It's like you were elected their spokesperson somehow? Do you guys have meetings? Can I come?
Also... maybe I shouldn't comment on this, but "I and many others" is such a funny way to start your comment. It's like you were elected their spokesperson somehow? Do you guys have meetings? Can I come?
~"Do you have any plans for Xanthe Zhou? They're a very new character, but I think they're easily one of the most unique new characters to come out of DC in the past decade and I could especially see them shining in this context, where the resident sword-wielding Asian person connected to the spirit world (that's an incredibly reductive way of framing the character but still the similarities are there) is firmly retired now."
~"Do you have plans for the first Vigilante, Greg Saunders?"
~"Did the Red Hood Gang exist in your universe? And if so, did the leader becomes the Joker?"
We haven't had a big batch of "Do you have plans for this character" questions in a while, but with this fun influx, I actually went and updated the FAQ pages so that this has its own section. the answers to these questions can be found there, along with all the other characters people have asked about!
~"this ask was originally gonna say "what if you did a optional side thing where you made drastic revamps for DC characters" but then i thought of something else. there's a option on this side for fans to submit their own timelines, but maybe in the near or distant future of this site, since not every fan will have a big ol timeline, but maybe a few good ideas, what if there was a place on this site for us to submit this drastic revamp ideas or character reworks. (maybe with the possible feedback from the site-runners, who knows)"
We actually already have a place where you can do this! Our Discord is full of the creations and imaginings of all the members. People have their own channel on request that they can use however they want; we have one user who imagines their own DC movie universe, one who is doing a Transformers timeline, one person who is basically just keeping us updated while they watch all of Ben 10, and of course a ton of discussion about DC headcanon. You can hop into the Patreon if you'd like to join!
~"Flash Rebirth and Flashpoint are inherently unsatisfying stories because the moral of the stories is just: Thawne wins. The end. He &*@#s with time and erases several innocents from time via time travel and just gets away with it And our protagonist is condemned for attempting to put things right. You can't change the past unless your name is Eobard Thawne in which case go right ahead The central part of the retcon is also why it is Fundamentally broken."
I'd actually take it a little further, because both Rebirth & Flashpoint suffer from the same original problem; they are trying to build some sort of narrative interest in Barry Allen. So much of what we consider the story of Barry Allen; the murder of his mom, the "It was me, Barry!" antagonism of Thawne... none of it actually comes from the original character. This begs the question... if you have to work so hard to come up with something about this character to tell stories about... why bring them back in the first place?
~"The one thing that really throws me off with Rose being on the Suicide Squad is that she's still a minor when she's recruited; Waller's an immensely sketchy person in countless ways, but I feel like she still isn't so far gone that she'd throw a kid into a warzone, especially when her whole motivation is rooted in the loss of her own children"
I guess your take on Amanda Waller is just a little more redeemable than ours?
~"Curious to ask,, would you make Lynn John Stewart's sister?"
We’ve talked about this elsewhere, believe it or not; there have been periodic references to Lynn actually being John’s cousin, and one reader (hi crackpot!) Actually brought receipts that writer Tony Isabella originially imagined that Lynn might be related to John when he invented the character, although no one at the time followed up on it.
All that said, within our project we don't in fact think that making characters related to each other just because they share last names actually helps, so much as it just makes the world seem unnecessarily smaller. Particularly when we’re essentially talking about the two very first black superheroes in DC history.
All that said, within our project we don't in fact think that making characters related to each other just because they share last names actually helps, so much as it just makes the world seem unnecessarily smaller. Particularly when we’re essentially talking about the two very first black superheroes in DC history.
~"How the &*@# does an alien know what the Geneva Convention is"
Well first of all, do you kiss your mom with that mouth?
And to answer your question… it's a funny moment in a comic book. It’s going to require a certain amount of buy-in on your part. If this was too much of a stretch for you, this MIGHT not be the medium for you.
And to answer your question… it's a funny moment in a comic book. It’s going to require a certain amount of buy-in on your part. If this was too much of a stretch for you, this MIGHT not be the medium for you.
~"how do you feel about Watchmen characters being in the project?"
I don't ever want to sound like I'm arguing against other people doing whatever they want with THEIR fan timelines or headcanon. If including the Watchmen characters into the main DC continuity is your jam, then by all means, go to town. I’m only ever talking here about MY OWN OPINION, and about this one personal project I built with my own friends.
That said: if the idea of bringing the Watchmen characters into the main DC continuity had a face, I would punch it.
For one thing, Watchmen is a deconstruction. Deconstructions are great, but by their whole nature, they’re meant to tell the story they're telling and then END. Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, Kingdom Come… they’re all great, self-contained stories but they fall apart completely when you try to extend the narrative or, even worse, try to connect them to into the main continuity, which is the very thing they’re deconstructing.
This goes double for Alan Moore. One of the many things he does unbelievably well is close his stories. All of his absolute best work is marked by how ironclad and definitive their ending is. in the few cases where Moore didn't deliberately and emphatically close the door on his own story, his own penchant for deconstruction would start to kick in, like in the later issues of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen or Tom Strong, where he starts to deconstruct HIMSELF and it gets weird fast.
I appreciate that people have an infinite appetite for more of whatever thing they like; more sequels, more seasons, more spinoff series, more more more more more. I think part of what we’re at least aiming for with this project is to recognize when too much is too much, and to at least ATTEMPT to exercise some restraint.
So no. No Watchmen in my DC, please.
That said: if the idea of bringing the Watchmen characters into the main DC continuity had a face, I would punch it.
For one thing, Watchmen is a deconstruction. Deconstructions are great, but by their whole nature, they’re meant to tell the story they're telling and then END. Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, Kingdom Come… they’re all great, self-contained stories but they fall apart completely when you try to extend the narrative or, even worse, try to connect them to into the main continuity, which is the very thing they’re deconstructing.
This goes double for Alan Moore. One of the many things he does unbelievably well is close his stories. All of his absolute best work is marked by how ironclad and definitive their ending is. in the few cases where Moore didn't deliberately and emphatically close the door on his own story, his own penchant for deconstruction would start to kick in, like in the later issues of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen or Tom Strong, where he starts to deconstruct HIMSELF and it gets weird fast.
I appreciate that people have an infinite appetite for more of whatever thing they like; more sequels, more seasons, more spinoff series, more more more more more. I think part of what we’re at least aiming for with this project is to recognize when too much is too much, and to at least ATTEMPT to exercise some restraint.
So no. No Watchmen in my DC, please.
~"As a new viewer, Are the “X’s future” things hinting at future updates or are the left intentionally vague to leave it up to the viewers imagination?"
Welcome, we’re excited to have you, and I hope you’re enjoying yourself!
No, this isn't meant to set up any future updates, it's just a space for me to sort of ponder what might come down the line for that character in the theoretical future. We do, of course, go back occasionally and add new content to already completed timelines, but you'd be shocked how rarely that involves moving into the future at all. The timeline has remained pretty fixed at it's current point in the years we've been doing this.
No, this isn't meant to set up any future updates, it's just a space for me to sort of ponder what might come down the line for that character in the theoretical future. We do, of course, go back occasionally and add new content to already completed timelines, but you'd be shocked how rarely that involves moving into the future at all. The timeline has remained pretty fixed at it's current point in the years we've been doing this.
~"How do you feel about most of DC’s aliens being just humans, like the daxamites?"
You’d think this would be such an easy question to answer, right? But I read this before a long car ride and wound up with so many thoughts about it.
First of all… I actually kind of question the premise, here? When I start thinking about DC aliens, my first thought isn’t all the Legion Of Super-Heroes alien species, it's the Green Lantern Corp. From the very beginning, they LOVED to emphasize just how ‘alien’ their aliens were, deliberately creating characters like Larvox and Chaselon just to drive home the point, and they’ve never really let up, creating one of the most diverse casts of alien races you’re likely to find. This has continued right on through DC’s history, including everything from the Gordanians to the Dryadians to that weird alien worm Batman and Superman watched reproduce and die.
While there is of course a broad number of alien races that follow a certain Star Trek logic of being essentially humans with varying skin color or whatever, I think the main reason there are still a good number of aliens that are just fully human is because a lot of them date back to the fifties or earlier lol when that was just what aliens looked like. The Kryptonians, the people of Rann, and the zillions of Legion planets… they’re from the extreme early days of serialized mass-market science fiction. This was something you saw all the time.
So really, what you’re talking about here isn't just a concept in DC, it's across the whole spectrum of the genre. I’m a lifelong scifi nerd, and my tastes are all over the place, so I don't really feel any particular need to explain this when I see it. I’m perfectly comfortable just accepting that yes, Maxima from Almerac looks an awful lot like a human redhead.
There is a LONG tradition of trying to explain this sort of thing for people with a lower tolerance level, though. Even Star Trek, which is basically ground zero for humanized aliens, had an episode explaining why that happened. Some of those ideas can integrate pretty seamlessly into DC, if you need them to be there. There's no reason that a lot of the Legion Worlds can't just be human colonies, especially if you start working to give each member a unique origin for their superpowers rather than just saying everyone from that planet has that power. We haven’t actually gotten to our version of Damamites yet, but we actually do something like this.
First of all… I actually kind of question the premise, here? When I start thinking about DC aliens, my first thought isn’t all the Legion Of Super-Heroes alien species, it's the Green Lantern Corp. From the very beginning, they LOVED to emphasize just how ‘alien’ their aliens were, deliberately creating characters like Larvox and Chaselon just to drive home the point, and they’ve never really let up, creating one of the most diverse casts of alien races you’re likely to find. This has continued right on through DC’s history, including everything from the Gordanians to the Dryadians to that weird alien worm Batman and Superman watched reproduce and die.
While there is of course a broad number of alien races that follow a certain Star Trek logic of being essentially humans with varying skin color or whatever, I think the main reason there are still a good number of aliens that are just fully human is because a lot of them date back to the fifties or earlier lol when that was just what aliens looked like. The Kryptonians, the people of Rann, and the zillions of Legion planets… they’re from the extreme early days of serialized mass-market science fiction. This was something you saw all the time.
So really, what you’re talking about here isn't just a concept in DC, it's across the whole spectrum of the genre. I’m a lifelong scifi nerd, and my tastes are all over the place, so I don't really feel any particular need to explain this when I see it. I’m perfectly comfortable just accepting that yes, Maxima from Almerac looks an awful lot like a human redhead.
There is a LONG tradition of trying to explain this sort of thing for people with a lower tolerance level, though. Even Star Trek, which is basically ground zero for humanized aliens, had an episode explaining why that happened. Some of those ideas can integrate pretty seamlessly into DC, if you need them to be there. There's no reason that a lot of the Legion Worlds can't just be human colonies, especially if you start working to give each member a unique origin for their superpowers rather than just saying everyone from that planet has that power. We haven’t actually gotten to our version of Damamites yet, but we actually do something like this.
~"Merlyn is my favorite of the updates that i gave any input to. It was just interesting to see it go from 'Ok, where do we start?' to full timeline in an afternoon."
Hi Personmans!
Merlyn was a recently updated page, and the timeline we had in place was just no good at all. I've starting to do this more and more often, where I'll just start talking out a particular problem in the discord, and within minutes everyone is jumping in and giving me great ideas or support, in many cases helping build something almost from scratch. In this case, I believe Personmans was specifically responsible for suggesting that China White be the person Oliver is trying to protect from Merlyn in what we called the "16 blocks sequence", as well as the suggestion to make Oliver Merlyn's assassination target when he confronts Connor Hawke late in the timeline.
I DO offer to give credit for this stuff, but... you know. It kind of becomes a big collective project. Anyone that would like to join in the next time we do this, let me know if you'd like a discord invite!
Merlyn was a recently updated page, and the timeline we had in place was just no good at all. I've starting to do this more and more often, where I'll just start talking out a particular problem in the discord, and within minutes everyone is jumping in and giving me great ideas or support, in many cases helping build something almost from scratch. In this case, I believe Personmans was specifically responsible for suggesting that China White be the person Oliver is trying to protect from Merlyn in what we called the "16 blocks sequence", as well as the suggestion to make Oliver Merlyn's assassination target when he confronts Connor Hawke late in the timeline.
I DO offer to give credit for this stuff, but... you know. It kind of becomes a big collective project. Anyone that would like to join in the next time we do this, let me know if you'd like a discord invite!
~"Love the search bar by the way!"
Thank you! After all my whining that I would never be able to figure out how to implement one, how rediculous is it that I finally discovered that it's a basic part of the weebly site builder?
Also, here's a weird hack I've discovered. Apparently the Google algorithm really likes websites that update consistently, and we're apparently doing pretty good on that front, because we've somehow achieved some really bananas seach engine optimization without really trying to? Often, if you want to get to a particular character on our site, if you just google that character's name and 'continuity' that page will, with very few exceptions, wind up being the top result!?! Try it, it's crazy!
Also, here's a weird hack I've discovered. Apparently the Google algorithm really likes websites that update consistently, and we're apparently doing pretty good on that front, because we've somehow achieved some really bananas seach engine optimization without really trying to? Often, if you want to get to a particular character on our site, if you just google that character's name and 'continuity' that page will, with very few exceptions, wind up being the top result!?! Try it, it's crazy!
~"I thought of a way to make Alpha Centurion feel less disconnected from everything else: Make it so the aliens who abducted him abduct people throughout human history. Alpha Centurion is the second to escape, the first being a cowboy named Tobias Manning, who stole alien weaponry, which may or may not eventually find its way in Bloodsport’s hands."
People are constantly bringing up Alpha Centurion whenever I talk about not adding characters just because we like them. This guy is CLEARLY just here because we want him here.
I think what's really going on is that I happen to personally have this notion of using him as a loose reference to the David Weber novel The Excalibur Alternative... which in practice clearly just means I have an idea for his story, and we just haven't done a great job of telling it. We'll see what we can do :)
I think what's really going on is that I happen to personally have this notion of using him as a loose reference to the David Weber novel The Excalibur Alternative... which in practice clearly just means I have an idea for his story, and we just haven't done a great job of telling it. We'll see what we can do :)
~"would the court of owls fit green arrow better? "society of rich people pulling the strings in the shadows" would fit arrows semi-political theme."
Hm. There's a lot to unpack there (I'm not even sure if I'd agree that 'political' is the right word there, but I do see what you mean.). We've had a pretty long conversation recently about how to actually infuse Green Arrow with the sort of hero-for-the-people ideology that he's supposed to represent, and you should see us implement a bunch of those changes at some point.
To answer your specific question; honestly, I think the weakness of the Court of Owls is just as bad here. The idea is that Green Arrow is standing up to corrupt systems of power, whether that's coming from some billionares boardroom, or a squadcar. Him standing up to people that are openly, nakedly in power is the whole point. if we introduce a secret, shadowy cabal of wealthy elite that are ACTUALLY responsible for the corruption of those systems of powers, we've stripped out all the man-stands-up-to-the-system intrigue we were working toward. It's just another secret group of baddies. They might as well be Kaos.
Ultimately, I think this is always going to be the problem with the Court of Owls; it's always going to be an attempt to take the actual hearty meal of the story at hand and blunt it down to make it an easily digestible comic book pill.
To answer your specific question; honestly, I think the weakness of the Court of Owls is just as bad here. The idea is that Green Arrow is standing up to corrupt systems of power, whether that's coming from some billionares boardroom, or a squadcar. Him standing up to people that are openly, nakedly in power is the whole point. if we introduce a secret, shadowy cabal of wealthy elite that are ACTUALLY responsible for the corruption of those systems of powers, we've stripped out all the man-stands-up-to-the-system intrigue we were working toward. It's just another secret group of baddies. They might as well be Kaos.
Ultimately, I think this is always going to be the problem with the Court of Owls; it's always going to be an attempt to take the actual hearty meal of the story at hand and blunt it down to make it an easily digestible comic book pill.
~"This is very interesting read. It is too bad that DC doesn't want to straighten out their continuity. I have a question, will you keep characters dead? My suggestion is list the character's superpower, weakness, Species, height, and etc. Good luck."
Some rapid fire ideas here! We're glad you're enjoying it, it's very much a labor of nerdy love. I do think DC would LIKE to, but at this point I don't think they're really in a position to do so, as they're owned by other companies with other adgendas... but we do try to avoid dwelling on what we wish DC was; the fun here is in imagining what it could be.
In answer to your question, I don't think we have a hard-and-fast rule here. Generally, yes, if a character dies, our preference is for them to actually be dead, but of course there are exceptions; Superman obviously comes back (inasmuch as he was never actually dead in the first place), Elasti-Girl comes back (again, because she was not LITERALLY dead), Wonder Woman & Donna Troy come back (because they're tied to Grecian mythology), Superboy comes back (thanks to some time travel shenaingans)... but otherwise I think we've managed to be fairly consistent.
Regarding your idea to include all those stats; boy that would be fun, huh? I'm a D&D player, I do love some good character stats. It wasn't ever really in the scope of this project to do that, this was always more about getting the story straight, but people over in our discord do talk about this all the time, shoutout to Crackpot and their giant list of character heights. If you'd like to join in, you can hop into our patreon. :)
In answer to your question, I don't think we have a hard-and-fast rule here. Generally, yes, if a character dies, our preference is for them to actually be dead, but of course there are exceptions; Superman obviously comes back (inasmuch as he was never actually dead in the first place), Elasti-Girl comes back (again, because she was not LITERALLY dead), Wonder Woman & Donna Troy come back (because they're tied to Grecian mythology), Superboy comes back (thanks to some time travel shenaingans)... but otherwise I think we've managed to be fairly consistent.
Regarding your idea to include all those stats; boy that would be fun, huh? I'm a D&D player, I do love some good character stats. It wasn't ever really in the scope of this project to do that, this was always more about getting the story straight, but people over in our discord do talk about this all the time, shoutout to Crackpot and their giant list of character heights. If you'd like to join in, you can hop into our patreon. :)
~"Do you have any parts of this project more or less definitively defined, with no further major rewrites? If so, which ones are?
Keep up the good work! Adios!"
Keep up the good work! Adios!"
I don't think any part is ever going to be DONE, right? A general way you can tell that a page is probably not scheduled for an update is if it has the comment option, and a link back to the comment log. Those pages are, for the most part, finished. If you look at the dropdown from the top of the page, we're essentially working our way down that. Right now we're in the Suicide Squad, and most of what's above that is more or less currently finished.
Of course, the more time that passes since we finished any page, the more we start to feel like we want to go back and just fix it up. We DON'T, because we want to finish our current tasks before we start doing that, but that basically means that nothing is set in stone. Also, any particular character could, down the line, become a part of a new story that necessitates their page to be rewritten.
Of course, the more time that passes since we finished any page, the more we start to feel like we want to go back and just fix it up. We DON'T, because we want to finish our current tasks before we start doing that, but that basically means that nothing is set in stone. Also, any particular character could, down the line, become a part of a new story that necessitates their page to be rewritten.
~”hello! i have a quick question; in regards to melisande, where exactly did you get that information regarding her origin/backstory?”
Hello back! There's actually very little actual canon information aboit Melisandre. She's named, and her death is described, in Batman: Son of the Demon, but beyond that I believe the only references to her you'll find are during Grant Morrison's run.
Beyond that, the details here are mostly our own.
Beyond that, the details here are mostly our own.
~“are you guys interested in doing something like this for MARVEL?”
Of course! We're comic fans first and foremost, and we have quite a bit of Marvel content written for what will likely one day be a Marvel Continuity Project. It's going to have to operate with very different rules and, we imagine, will probably be even more controversial, but as of now it's years away.
As it happens, we do talk about it quite a bit over in the discord, so you can head over to our patreon and join that conversation :)
As it happens, we do talk about it quite a bit over in the discord, so you can head over to our patreon and join that conversation :)
~“Since he was mentioned in Star Spangled Kid’s bio, are you going to give Brainwave his own page?”
Yep! We don't have a timeline for him yet, this name drop was actually the first time we had a role for him, but he just happened to be a good character for that particular moment, and will probably eventually work well as part of that era's Injustice Society.
~“A while ago I suggested adding Libra to your project, and you responded with by saying you didn’t see anything worth adapting. So after thinking about it for a while (maybe too much?) who’s is what I have to suggest.
In the Batman: The Brave and the Bold show there is a villain named Equinox who is inspired by Libra. He was an orphan raised by the Lords of Order and Chaos who granted him godlike powers and tasked him with maintaining balance between good and evil. However, Equinox was overwhelmed by this and went rogue to pursue his own sense of balance.
I think this origin is way better than the comics, (where his dad fell off a roof and now he likes balance? Idk) especially since he sometimes helps the heroes, for his own strange reasons. I think you could combine Libra with Equinox to get a half-way interesting character. Maybe he could seeks revenge on the Lords of Order and Chaos by going after their avatars like Doctor Fate and Hawk & Dove. Maybe even Klarion.”
In the Batman: The Brave and the Bold show there is a villain named Equinox who is inspired by Libra. He was an orphan raised by the Lords of Order and Chaos who granted him godlike powers and tasked him with maintaining balance between good and evil. However, Equinox was overwhelmed by this and went rogue to pursue his own sense of balance.
I think this origin is way better than the comics, (where his dad fell off a roof and now he likes balance? Idk) especially since he sometimes helps the heroes, for his own strange reasons. I think you could combine Libra with Equinox to get a half-way interesting character. Maybe he could seeks revenge on the Lords of Order and Chaos by going after their avatars like Doctor Fate and Hawk & Dove. Maybe even Klarion.”
Hey, thank you for following up!
That's a fun idea. Absolutely a good idea for a character backstory and a good candidate for an enemy for those characters. Personally, I find that it raises the question as to why I'm adapting one character into another rather than just using the original, but if your goal is to create a workable version of Libra, this certainly does that.
We've been doing a thing in the discord where we give everyone their own space to build out their own fan continuity and we can all bounce ideas off each other... I bet you'd have fun in there.
That's a fun idea. Absolutely a good idea for a character backstory and a good candidate for an enemy for those characters. Personally, I find that it raises the question as to why I'm adapting one character into another rather than just using the original, but if your goal is to create a workable version of Libra, this certainly does that.
We've been doing a thing in the discord where we give everyone their own space to build out their own fan continuity and we can all bounce ideas off each other... I bet you'd have fun in there.
~”You know, it's funny; a while back I considered pitching using Thomas Kalmaku in a very similar way for your version of Hal Jordan, being his best friend going all the way back to before he was Green Lantern, them falling out over a disagreement about the ethics of him dating Arisia and then dying in the bombing of Coast City, which would be a key part of what makes Hal completely snap.
I don't know how well it holds up under scrutiny, especially now that Wintergreen's here and he's so similar to him, but I figured I'd bring it up since I found the coincidence amusing.”
I don't know how well it holds up under scrutiny, especially now that Wintergreen's here and he's so similar to him, but I figured I'd bring it up since I found the coincidence amusing.”
For context, this was posted on Wintergreen's page, and that IS pretty funny :)
I think what would have given me pause, had you made that pitch, is that it's really hard to justify doing anything with Thomas Kalmaku, because just by including him at all you're acknowledging that Pieface existed. Having read those old comics I think they were really doing their best to avoid doing a racist caricature, but that's just not a tightrope that's fun to watch someone walk. If you ARE trying to add him to your timeline, in every possible story you come up with that might include him, you wind up asking "could I do this with any other character without a problematic history?" and the answer is almost always yes.
Still, looks like great minds think alike!
I think what would have given me pause, had you made that pitch, is that it's really hard to justify doing anything with Thomas Kalmaku, because just by including him at all you're acknowledging that Pieface existed. Having read those old comics I think they were really doing their best to avoid doing a racist caricature, but that's just not a tightrope that's fun to watch someone walk. If you ARE trying to add him to your timeline, in every possible story you come up with that might include him, you wind up asking "could I do this with any other character without a problematic history?" and the answer is almost always yes.
Still, looks like great minds think alike!
~”Are you at all interested in the other "forces" like the sage or still force?”
Short answer: not really.
I think we would be if we had any sense that they added anything to the overall lore, but I think these are good examples of a phenomenon one of the discord users described as "collector brain", this reaction we nerds often have when concepts are described as being part of a set?
The Speed Force is a fantastic addition to the mythology of the Flash, but you rob it of a lot of it's narrative muscle when you reduce it to just one of several similar forces. We might feel differently if we gained something, but as it is this is the multicolored Lantern Corps all over again.
I think we would be if we had any sense that they added anything to the overall lore, but I think these are good examples of a phenomenon one of the discord users described as "collector brain", this reaction we nerds often have when concepts are described as being part of a set?
The Speed Force is a fantastic addition to the mythology of the Flash, but you rob it of a lot of it's narrative muscle when you reduce it to just one of several similar forces. We might feel differently if we gained something, but as it is this is the multicolored Lantern Corps all over again.
~"Godd*mn, what a great and tragic take on this character!"
This was posted on the new Peacemaker page, and it just filled my heart with glee. Thank you do much! This was a character we really needed to get the concept right for in order to use them at all, so I’m so glad you liked what you saw!
~"The Huntress: what's up with her being a homewrecker for both Nightwing and Green Arrow? Feels a little bit sl*t shame-y."
Hm. This is interesting.
I don’t think we invented the idea of Helena being a sexual person; that’s been part of her identity pretty much from the get-go. She and Nightwing were both single when they get together, and as far as she knew, so was Oliver?
So, I’m not sure who here is actually shaming anyone?
I don’t think we invented the idea of Helena being a sexual person; that’s been part of her identity pretty much from the get-go. She and Nightwing were both single when they get together, and as far as she knew, so was Oliver?
So, I’m not sure who here is actually shaming anyone?
~"Lady Shiva’s bio doesn’t mention her meeting David Cain and having Cassandra"
That's true, it doesn't :)
It's actually deliberate, because we don't think that the retcon making Shiva Cassandra's mother was a necessary one. What made Cassandra so cool was the story of the torturous upbringing she was overcoming, not some chosen one narrative about her stellar genetics. Shiva should want to fight her because she's just that good, not out of whatever familial bonds they happened to have.
This did remind us to dig in a little and find any lingering references to Shiva being Cassie's mom and take them out, though, so thank you for that!
It's actually deliberate, because we don't think that the retcon making Shiva Cassandra's mother was a necessary one. What made Cassandra so cool was the story of the torturous upbringing she was overcoming, not some chosen one narrative about her stellar genetics. Shiva should want to fight her because she's just that good, not out of whatever familial bonds they happened to have.
This did remind us to dig in a little and find any lingering references to Shiva being Cassie's mom and take them out, though, so thank you for that!
~"If I had a nickle for every one-off Atlantean that became an Aquaman villain in your timeline, I would have two nickles, which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice."
No kidding! This was actually originally one character, but as we wrote them up it became very clear that there were two distinct roles here: the religious leader and the scientist. We were already looking for possible Atlantean figures to use, and it just fell out that this was the way to do it. Our goal is always to try to hone in on what feels like the most correct version of the story, and sometimes that just finds a shape you didn't expect.
~"Have you ever considered doing timelines for locations? Like when they where founded and the major events that have happened in them
Ex: Atlantis, Themyscira, Gotham City, or Metropolis?"
Ex: Atlantis, Themyscira, Gotham City, or Metropolis?"
We absolutely have! That's a conversation that's been ongoing in the discord server, and we do actually plan to implement it down the line.
In fact, I'll do you one better: what about specific objects? The Batmobile, or the Starheart, or the Materioptikon?
In fact, I'll do you one better: what about specific objects? The Batmobile, or the Starheart, or the Materioptikon?
~"What would you consider to be the most important events that happened in the overall story of your timeline?"
Man, I am so bad at these. My instinct is always to immediately respond with something like 'well, define important…', but that's such a pedantic answer :)
I would say one of the biggest moments is the Kents finding Kal-el's rocket. Superman is such a massive linchpin in the world and that could have gone very differently. The Kents raised such a humble, helpful, genuinely good person, and in doing so very clearly saved the human race and most sentient life in the galaxy several times over.
There's the original Shadowpact, when Arion first established the barriers between the paths beyond and the material world. There's Krona viewing the creation of the universe and inadvertently infusing it with entropy. There's the battle with Maggeddon, when the heroes of Earth push back the end of the universe… or even something small and human like the murder of Bruce's parents.
I would say one of the biggest moments is the Kents finding Kal-el's rocket. Superman is such a massive linchpin in the world and that could have gone very differently. The Kents raised such a humble, helpful, genuinely good person, and in doing so very clearly saved the human race and most sentient life in the galaxy several times over.
There's the original Shadowpact, when Arion first established the barriers between the paths beyond and the material world. There's Krona viewing the creation of the universe and inadvertently infusing it with entropy. There's the battle with Maggeddon, when the heroes of Earth push back the end of the universe… or even something small and human like the murder of Bruce's parents.
~"Gotta say that the kingdom team was wonderful. And I hope that you can do the same in other continents. The llose connections between the members was a great idea, because it IS difficult to sustain a team from different countries Keep up the good work! Adios, amigo?"
Thank you very much! We really liked how this turned out. I do want to point out, this wasn't something we JUST did. We didn't decide to make a team of African heroes, just grab whoever we wanted, and then put them out. It's probably been close to a year of adding possible characters to a list and slowly working each of them into someone that we felt worked in our timeline, and then bringing them together.
We are absolutely doing that using characters from all over the world as well, but I can't promise that every continent will be able to generate enough characters that feel usable for us to actually incorporate.
We are absolutely doing that using characters from all over the world as well, but I can't promise that every continent will be able to generate enough characters that feel usable for us to actually incorporate.
~"Just out of curiosity, what's the reason for having Barry, Hal, and Dinah debut several years before Batman? I understand Aquaman and Martian Manhunter since I'd assume they'd have a bunch of adventures prior to their public debuts and I MAY understand Oliver because of Connor's age but the other 3 I don't understand. Was it just to fit in more Adventures for Barry and Hal?"
Lord, this is an old question. Those original timelines were the ones we did over pizza more than a decade ago, when we were all frustrated at the New 52 and just started talking about what we thought DC's timeline should be. As I recall, the earliest conversations were about Batman; how old was he, when did his career start, that sort of thing, and then everything else just expanded outward from there. If someone was older or younger, if there career started before or after someone else, it was just because that was our collective agreement that this was where we all wanted it to be.
So I don't really have a definite answer for you, unfortunately. It's really just a function of the fact that everyone has to have an age, everyone's career has to start somewhere, and this was what we all decided we liked the most.
So I don't really have a definite answer for you, unfortunately. It's really just a function of the fact that everyone has to have an age, everyone's career has to start somewhere, and this was what we all decided we liked the most.
~"This is a bit of a random question but do you have anybody specific in mind to replace Lex Luthor as the President of the United States after his downfall? I mainly ask because I know the general idea is that after his presidency the world governments' relationship with the superhero community got noticeably friendlier, and I think a huge indicator of that relationship shift would be to have a well-established superhero ally like Pete Ross (as in the comics) or hell maybe even Snapper Carr in office."
Great question! It's always super fascinating to think about ways that the world of DC differs from out own. Personally, I wonder what the history of the playoffs have been given that DC's major sports division all have at least two more professional teams in rotation, to say nothing of what all these fictional cities influence on American food, fashion, or music culture might have been.
Generally speaking, DC has always just had the same Presidents as the real world. Right up until 2001, practically every sitting real-world President showed up at some point in the pages of DC Comics. George W Bush, for whatever reason, is a massive exception. He is the only President in US History, presumably, to not also appear in DC because he was replaced by Lex Luthor. Even when he was removed from office (for attacking the country with a giant mech suit) his vice President Pete Ross continued to be depicted as President right up until 2009, when Obama took over.
The upshot of this is that, while our sliding timeline really doesn't let us match the 'current President' model of the regular comics, there actually aren't other fictional Presidents in DC cannon we could draw from. In our timeline Lex never went to Smallville, so it doesn't really track for Pete to be the Vice President (spoilers, but he's going to be the Mayor of Smallville), and giving the role to a random existing character that doesn't have anything in their backstory suggesting that they could be President feels pretty inauthentic.
There are characters in play currently that feel like they might be up for the role someday (John Henry Irons comes to mind), but without having carefully set someone up for the role I just don't think the story as we're currently telling it actually needs to know who the President is.
Generally speaking, DC has always just had the same Presidents as the real world. Right up until 2001, practically every sitting real-world President showed up at some point in the pages of DC Comics. George W Bush, for whatever reason, is a massive exception. He is the only President in US History, presumably, to not also appear in DC because he was replaced by Lex Luthor. Even when he was removed from office (for attacking the country with a giant mech suit) his vice President Pete Ross continued to be depicted as President right up until 2009, when Obama took over.
The upshot of this is that, while our sliding timeline really doesn't let us match the 'current President' model of the regular comics, there actually aren't other fictional Presidents in DC cannon we could draw from. In our timeline Lex never went to Smallville, so it doesn't really track for Pete to be the Vice President (spoilers, but he's going to be the Mayor of Smallville), and giving the role to a random existing character that doesn't have anything in their backstory suggesting that they could be President feels pretty inauthentic.
There are characters in play currently that feel like they might be up for the role someday (John Henry Irons comes to mind), but without having carefully set someone up for the role I just don't think the story as we're currently telling it actually needs to know who the President is.
~"I have a question regarding Rip Hunter saving Karen the velociraptor and her becoming his sidekick. Does that actually have any basis? I don't know a lot about comics, and haven't dug that deep, but a few searches and I can't find anything regarding this character. There's a character from the Gotham television show named Karen Jennings. A person who has a raptor-like claw arm. I also couldn't find any basis for this character, so I assumed it to be an original for the show. Fun coincidence or more than that? Invented character or something with an actual comic history? If you did invent it, what made you name it Karen? Keep up the good work."
That one is 100% an original idea. It's pretty straightforward; Rip should have a companion to share his ship with even when he doesn't have a passenger, and it just seemed completely natural for a time traveler to have a dinosaur sidekick.
As for the name...
As for the name...
~"Did Avery Sunderland kill the Holland’s in the comics? I thought it was some guy named Mr. E"
In the original series, you're absolutely right, Mr. E was the name of the character who ordered the Holland's deaths. The second series, before Alan Moore took over, got all twisted up in a conspiracy featuring Sunderland's attempts to get his hands on the bio-restorative formula, going all the way back to the original murders. It's honestly not a great read, so I think most people just skip over it, but there is at least SOME precedent here. We do absolutely make a lot of changes with no precedent at all, of course, so I totally get why you're asking.
~"How old is Lian Harper when she survive ?"
Technically she just keeps right on surviving the whole time.
~"This just might be the best page on the website. The passion and love for the character oozes out of every word, and the timeline really does feel like a complete profile of this man's life journey up until now."
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!
This was a comment on my new Swamp Thing page. I really did put a lot of time and energy into getting this page into a shape I was proud of, so I can't tell you how much I appreciate the feedback!
This was a comment on my new Swamp Thing page. I really did put a lot of time and energy into getting this page into a shape I was proud of, so I can't tell you how much I appreciate the feedback!
~"Hey, great to still read this place. Sorry to not join the discord channel, but no time for me really. You still have a faithful reader in Chile
And for my two bits of ideas here they are
1- I was thinking on what kind of enemies your All Star Squadron has. I don't think that the enemies of the Roy Thomas comic are very useful there. They are very Golden Age-ish, and more or less, your take happens in the eighties. So maybe the guys that they fight are those guys from second file series of tjose years that they dont make the cut to get updated. Guys from Blue Beetle of 1985, or the original Booster Gold run or the Firestorm by Gerry Conway ( maybe they are Firebrand's enemies) or the pre Morrison Doom Patrol or batman and the outsiders or infinity inc. You know, middle powered bad guys with one or two major menace ( Vandal Savage is in my mind , using them as pawns against th all star squadron) .
2- And what about the sixties? You have there a big part in the cheonology with no supers. (Actually i thought up that the original Marvel Universe until secret wars fits nicely there, but of course this is not the idea) Wouldn't it be cool have some super group there. A Seven Soldiers of victory with a recast characters that got that silver age vibe ( plus the Chalks and other adventure heroes of the time).
Of course i am only thinking out loud. If you find something of this useful, mine's the pleasure
Saludos"
And for my two bits of ideas here they are
1- I was thinking on what kind of enemies your All Star Squadron has. I don't think that the enemies of the Roy Thomas comic are very useful there. They are very Golden Age-ish, and more or less, your take happens in the eighties. So maybe the guys that they fight are those guys from second file series of tjose years that they dont make the cut to get updated. Guys from Blue Beetle of 1985, or the original Booster Gold run or the Firestorm by Gerry Conway ( maybe they are Firebrand's enemies) or the pre Morrison Doom Patrol or batman and the outsiders or infinity inc. You know, middle powered bad guys with one or two major menace ( Vandal Savage is in my mind , using them as pawns against th all star squadron) .
2- And what about the sixties? You have there a big part in the cheonology with no supers. (Actually i thought up that the original Marvel Universe until secret wars fits nicely there, but of course this is not the idea) Wouldn't it be cool have some super group there. A Seven Soldiers of victory with a recast characters that got that silver age vibe ( plus the Chalks and other adventure heroes of the time).
Of course i am only thinking out loud. If you find something of this useful, mine's the pleasure
Saludos"
Hey, it's good to hear from you again!
We do technically have SOME enemies for the All-Star Squadron now, in the original Injustice Society. We'll likely have some more crop up over time. I don't know if we generally start with a ROLE, like All-Star Squadron enemy, and then cast for the role, so much as us having specific stories we want to adapt and needing villains for that particular story. That might seem like a minor difference, but in practice it feels very distinct.
The way our timeline is structured, there actually has to be fixed dates after which we don't do any further content. At some point, we have to cross over from the fixed timeline to the sliding one. As it is, they're already overlapping a little bit; the latest date in the fixed timeline is 1967, while the earliest date on the sliding timeline is 80 years ago. As I'm writing this, 80 years ago is 1943.
We really don't want to push so deep into the fixed timeline that it starts excessively crossing over with the sliding one. We only have dates in the 60s included because we wanted Amazing Man to be an early part of the civil rights movement. If we wanted to do what you're describing we technically couldn't actually be the 60s,but we COULD do a version of it in the sliding timeline? As of the time I'm writing this in 2023, the 60s would technically be between 54-63 years ago, but of course, that's going to be a moving target. Still, it is a very clever idea. I'm actually thinking it mighe be a good place to include the Challengers of the Unknown?
We do technically have SOME enemies for the All-Star Squadron now, in the original Injustice Society. We'll likely have some more crop up over time. I don't know if we generally start with a ROLE, like All-Star Squadron enemy, and then cast for the role, so much as us having specific stories we want to adapt and needing villains for that particular story. That might seem like a minor difference, but in practice it feels very distinct.
The way our timeline is structured, there actually has to be fixed dates after which we don't do any further content. At some point, we have to cross over from the fixed timeline to the sliding one. As it is, they're already overlapping a little bit; the latest date in the fixed timeline is 1967, while the earliest date on the sliding timeline is 80 years ago. As I'm writing this, 80 years ago is 1943.
We really don't want to push so deep into the fixed timeline that it starts excessively crossing over with the sliding one. We only have dates in the 60s included because we wanted Amazing Man to be an early part of the civil rights movement. If we wanted to do what you're describing we technically couldn't actually be the 60s,but we COULD do a version of it in the sliding timeline? As of the time I'm writing this in 2023, the 60s would technically be between 54-63 years ago, but of course, that's going to be a moving target. Still, it is a very clever idea. I'm actually thinking it mighe be a good place to include the Challengers of the Unknown?
~"There is some inaccurates in your description of the character you said he was half black and half Korean which he's not hes half white a quarter Korean and a quarter black so it makes sense that he would look white with some ethnic features like darker skin tone and he is straight chuck Dixon said so so I don't know where your getting the idea he's not straight"
Sooo... this comment was about the new Green Arrow, Connor Hawke, and I think they might have misread the page, a little. I said that Connor's MOM was half-black and half-Korean, not that he was. While I understand that the story does explain that he's half white, what I was saying was that it might be nice if his mixed ethnicity was a little more on display.
In regard to his sexual orientation; I got the idea that he's not straight by reading his comic appearances. I understand that he wasn't being deliberately written as queer or asexual, but there is such a thing as a character being queer-coded without it being a deliberate choice from the author, and since I'm the one with his hands on the keyboard here, I get to make whatever observations I want :)
In regard to his sexual orientation; I got the idea that he's not straight by reading his comic appearances. I understand that he wasn't being deliberately written as queer or asexual, but there is such a thing as a character being queer-coded without it being a deliberate choice from the author, and since I'm the one with his hands on the keyboard here, I get to make whatever observations I want :)
~"So is Cassandra Cain still the adopted daughter of Bruce?"
I actually had to look this up, because I wasn't sure where this actually happened. I half-assumed this was just part of that weird record scratch in the cannon that happened in the New 52 when suddenly Bruce had adopted everyone he'd ever worked with?
But no, this 100% happened. It was referenced in the final issue of a six-issue Batgirl miniseries from 2008, right before Bruce's death in Final Crisis. I think the timing must be why I missed it, because the whole Batman world got topsy durvy so quickly after this.
Do we think this should be the case? Honestly... this is one of those ideas that, to us anyway, really start to strain credibility. The idea that Bruce's public identity is as this disaffected billionare playboy... who keeps adopting teenagers? This is absolutely a your-mileage-may-vary situation; I can absolutely see how for some people this is a non-issue, and if that's the case then yes, we'd wholeheartedly agree that Bruce should adopt Cassandra. For us, it just doesn't quite work.
But no, this 100% happened. It was referenced in the final issue of a six-issue Batgirl miniseries from 2008, right before Bruce's death in Final Crisis. I think the timing must be why I missed it, because the whole Batman world got topsy durvy so quickly after this.
Do we think this should be the case? Honestly... this is one of those ideas that, to us anyway, really start to strain credibility. The idea that Bruce's public identity is as this disaffected billionare playboy... who keeps adopting teenagers? This is absolutely a your-mileage-may-vary situation; I can absolutely see how for some people this is a non-issue, and if that's the case then yes, we'd wholeheartedly agree that Bruce should adopt Cassandra. For us, it just doesn't quite work.
~"You're telling me that Steve Trevor of all people joined one of the organizations created by Harry S. Truman to sponsor "former" Nazi officials. Am I reading this correctly? The same organization which started violent coups in multiple countries, assassinating democratically elected officials and replacing them with fascist dictators. I thought he was better than that."
What an intense response! I want to make sure I respond respectfully, because we're touching on some real-world history here, and I don't want to minimize the reality of any of this, so I'm only going to respond within the context of this story.
But... yea. Steve Trevor was a military intelligence officer with the OSS during World War II. Those are the guys that went on to form the CIA. That is 100% the correct story to tell with Steve.
Bear in mind here, you're looking at this from a modern, historical perspective. None of this was on the brochure when they founded the orgainization. Steve didn't see a posting for "organization we're making to sponsor nazis and topple democracies" and send them his resume. The CIA's originally stated purpose was meant to collect and share intelligence to protect America from threats. It was MEANT to be a good thing. That's the CIA that Steve Trevor joined.
All that said... I do think we can safely say that we have enough intelligence organizations in our fictional timeline that we don't have to name-drop a real life one. We can absolutely make Steve one of the first operatives of Argus, which can just as easily be a newly-formed intelligence organization in the post-war America, and it can fill exactly the same role.
But... yea. Steve Trevor was a military intelligence officer with the OSS during World War II. Those are the guys that went on to form the CIA. That is 100% the correct story to tell with Steve.
Bear in mind here, you're looking at this from a modern, historical perspective. None of this was on the brochure when they founded the orgainization. Steve didn't see a posting for "organization we're making to sponsor nazis and topple democracies" and send them his resume. The CIA's originally stated purpose was meant to collect and share intelligence to protect America from threats. It was MEANT to be a good thing. That's the CIA that Steve Trevor joined.
All that said... I do think we can safely say that we have enough intelligence organizations in our fictional timeline that we don't have to name-drop a real life one. We can absolutely make Steve one of the first operatives of Argus, which can just as easily be a newly-formed intelligence organization in the post-war America, and it can fill exactly the same role.
~"I was just looking over your page on Ra's al Ghul and it said he fought in the Napoleonic Wars. Do you happen to know what issue that was shown/mentioned in?"
Yep, that'd be Batman Annual #26 by Peter Milligan... Here's one of the relevant images. If you really want to go back and read about Ra's origin, though, the Holy Grail is the 1992 graphic novel Batman: Birth of the Demon by Dennis O'Neil & Andy Kubert. Dennis is one of the creators of Ra's obviously, and the way he tells this story is just amazing, to say nothing of the absolutely gorgeous art.
~"It really is sad how desperate they were to make Wonder Woman uncontroversial in the 1950s. Having the damsel in distress be Steve would be seen as immasculating to the teenage boys in the audience and having it be Etta or Mala would come off as a bit queer even to the straightest of straight people, so the Queen of an island-nation of badass warrior women was reduced to a near-constant victim for whoever the villain of the week was just because it's kinda hard to read that as immasculating or gay."
It is wild that you bring it up, because I was actually just thinking about Robert Kanigher.
It is literally impossible to overstate the influence of Kanigher. The guy is a legend across practically the entire history of comics and has worked on literally everything. He took over as the editor, artist and writer of the Golden Age Wonder Woman after the death of her creator William Moulton Marston. You kind of have to put yourself into his shoes at that moment, right? Marston's work would be considered cutting edge if you introduced it TODAY. He was building his stories out of some really challenging ideas, some of which we're still working to understand.
The fact that some of Kanigher's old stories include problematic elements isn't excused by their age, but I do think we're doing both him AND ourselves a disservice to not be able to look back at those moments and realize just how progressive they were, given the era he was writing in. Kanigher spend over twenty years working on Wonder Woman, and also introduced many other female-led stories in other parts of DC. He clearly put some real work and time and effort into evolving the concept of representation in comics.
Yes, he struggled with all the weird ideas we had at the time about sexuality and gender and... you know. the whole deal. A lot of this was awkward and, viewed though the prism of our modern sensibilities, looks pretty problematic. But honestly, that's a GOOD thing, because that means we've progressed. Hopefully, 80 years from now, readers in the future will look back at modern stories and feel the same way, becuase that will mean we've improved even more.
It is literally impossible to overstate the influence of Kanigher. The guy is a legend across practically the entire history of comics and has worked on literally everything. He took over as the editor, artist and writer of the Golden Age Wonder Woman after the death of her creator William Moulton Marston. You kind of have to put yourself into his shoes at that moment, right? Marston's work would be considered cutting edge if you introduced it TODAY. He was building his stories out of some really challenging ideas, some of which we're still working to understand.
The fact that some of Kanigher's old stories include problematic elements isn't excused by their age, but I do think we're doing both him AND ourselves a disservice to not be able to look back at those moments and realize just how progressive they were, given the era he was writing in. Kanigher spend over twenty years working on Wonder Woman, and also introduced many other female-led stories in other parts of DC. He clearly put some real work and time and effort into evolving the concept of representation in comics.
Yes, he struggled with all the weird ideas we had at the time about sexuality and gender and... you know. the whole deal. A lot of this was awkward and, viewed though the prism of our modern sensibilities, looks pretty problematic. But honestly, that's a GOOD thing, because that means we've progressed. Hopefully, 80 years from now, readers in the future will look back at modern stories and feel the same way, becuase that will mean we've improved even more.
~"I found the origin for the Cass redesign you shared here."
Hey, good find!
For those of you who don't know, we generally are using art assets scanned right out of the comics, but often we find some incredible original art online, and we try our best to credit and link to the original artist. By all means if you find any of the art we use out there in the wilds of the internet, let us know so we can reach out to the artist and give them credit!
For those of you who don't know, we generally are using art assets scanned right out of the comics, but often we find some incredible original art online, and we try our best to credit and link to the original artist. By all means if you find any of the art we use out there in the wilds of the internet, let us know so we can reach out to the artist and give them credit!
~"I'm really not a fan of John and Zatanna's brief fling happening when she's underage; he can be shifty and gross of course but dating a minor, even one on the cusp of adulthood like Zee is here, just takes the "lovable" aspect out of the lovable rogue to me. Having her be barely legal while he's more than a decade older and having the affair happen when she's in a vulnerable position due to Zatara's sacrifice sells the sleeziness of the union more than enough without making John a sex offender."
Yeeeeeaaaa... you're right.
There are a LOT of indivual points to argue here, of course. This would almost definitely take place in England, where the age of consent happens to be 16. He wouldn't be a sex offender, just absolute creep. I'd also suggest that the idea of Constantine being a 'loveable rogue' is a pretty recent concept, and that his actual classic characterization is best described as a 'complete bastard', and that being an absolute creep would be completely in character for him.
Still... you're right. We just don't need to include that particular brand of creepiness. Particularly since, as you pointed out, him hooking up with a much younger Zatanna after the death of her father is already a complete dick move.
There are a LOT of indivual points to argue here, of course. This would almost definitely take place in England, where the age of consent happens to be 16. He wouldn't be a sex offender, just absolute creep. I'd also suggest that the idea of Constantine being a 'loveable rogue' is a pretty recent concept, and that his actual classic characterization is best described as a 'complete bastard', and that being an absolute creep would be completely in character for him.
Still... you're right. We just don't need to include that particular brand of creepiness. Particularly since, as you pointed out, him hooking up with a much younger Zatanna after the death of her father is already a complete dick move.
~"Is the name Emily a nod to Emily Sung, the Element Woman from the New 52? I always really liked her, and found it frustrating how nobody ever did anything with her."
It sure is. Both of Sapphire's kids names are taken from cannon; Joey is actually the name of her son from the 90s miniseries. Now if you're going to reference Element Girl, you should really be doing the classic version rather than the New 52 character who might be the most perfect example of just how badly executed the New 52 was, but her name was "Urania Blackwell", and that is a HECK of a name to give a baby whose brother is named Joey.
~"Hi there, I was just reading your timeline of Hawk and Dove, and I notice you refer to them as twins. I always thought Hank was the older brother? Were they ever established as twins in the comics, or is that a change you guys decided to make in this project? I'm fine with it either way... just curious."
You know, I have no idea? I think I've been operating with the assumption that they were twins as long as I've known about them, and just never actually checked to see where I got that from? So i guess... it must be an original idea for our project, inasmuch as we clearly invented it, although it honestly just never occurred to me that they AREN'T twins.
~ "Will S.T.A.R. Labs be recieving its own page down the line?"
As of right now we don't know. There's a finite list of characters we plan to add, (although more get added to that list thanks to all your suggestions all the time), so at some point we're going to arguably be done with characters, but it sure does seem like it would make sense to start acknowledging the timelines of more organizations or places... or maybe even objects, like the batmobile?
As I said, we don't necessarily have plans for this yet, but if we wind up going that way, S.T.A.R. labs is almost definitely mentioned often enough to be included.
As I said, we don't necessarily have plans for this yet, but if we wind up going that way, S.T.A.R. labs is almost definitely mentioned often enough to be included.
~ "I love this because this is nemesis-level turtle. I mean obviously he doesn't supersede Reverse-Flash and Captain Cold, but it's like how Batman already has Joker but Bane and Ra's Al Ghil feel like "nemeses" when they show up. It's that but for Flash."
Hell yea! thats exactly what we were going for!
~ "In fairness of Zinda and her time in the BOP, there's nothing that Huntress adds to the team that Black Canary doesn't do better. And it wouldn't be weird if someone other than Oracle knew how to use a computer.
BOP is a street level team where the character's abilities are redundant, but their personalities are diverse. It's easy to imagine the BOP completing their adventures without her, but it's hard to imagine their adventures being as fun without her."
BOP is a street level team where the character's abilities are redundant, but their personalities are diverse. It's easy to imagine the BOP completing their adventures without her, but it's hard to imagine their adventures being as fun without her."
Thats a fair arguement. The BOP's powers ARE essentially redundant, but the book really isn't so much about their abilities. The appeal of the book was always about the relationships between the characters, and the innovation of a female friendship being front & center. When Gail Simone took over the series she expanded that idea with more character personalities so the showcase of female relationships could get broader, and conceptually THAT'S really what Huntress brings to the team; she's a new personality for Gail to play with. She's Veronica to Dinah's Betty.
So then isn't Zinda ALSO an additional voice and personality for them to play with? Yea, it COULD have been, but that wasn't her role. If you actually read the series while she was in it, She wasn't part of the core group, she was a loveable side character. She wasn't Monica, Rachel, or Phoebe... she was... the female version of Gunther? Janice? Maybe Friends was a poor example.
She was a very FUN side character, and I'm all in favor maintaining that fun character in her own story, but I maintain that the BOP will be just as good with their smaller lineup.
So then isn't Zinda ALSO an additional voice and personality for them to play with? Yea, it COULD have been, but that wasn't her role. If you actually read the series while she was in it, She wasn't part of the core group, she was a loveable side character. She wasn't Monica, Rachel, or Phoebe... she was... the female version of Gunther? Janice? Maybe Friends was a poor example.
She was a very FUN side character, and I'm all in favor maintaining that fun character in her own story, but I maintain that the BOP will be just as good with their smaller lineup.
~ "Hi! I'm a huge fan of your project - I love how extensive and real it feels and how it all meshes together so well. As a huge fan of continuity, it's personally a slice of heaven for me. Please, keep up the good work!
"I do have one question, however. In a lot of pages, you talk about a "Paths Beyond" that a bunch of characters keep going to and exploring. What is it, exactly? It doesn't exactly tell me anything if I search it up, either on the DC wiki or just on Google... Is it an original idea or is it actually from DC? Thanks!"
"I do have one question, however. In a lot of pages, you talk about a "Paths Beyond" that a bunch of characters keep going to and exploring. What is it, exactly? It doesn't exactly tell me anything if I search it up, either on the DC wiki or just on Google... Is it an original idea or is it actually from DC? Thanks!"
Thank you! We're super-glad you're enjoying it... we hope you'll send us an email for a Discord invite!
I'm really glad you asked this question, because we had gotten so used to using this idea in our worldbuilding that we actually kind of forgot that we'd kind of made it up! The actual expression "Paths Beyond" was something we first used with Manitou Raven. The character describes his particular form of magic as "walking the Stony Path". When we wanted to send him out of time to arrive in modern times, we used "The Paths Beyond", and the name has become a blanket term for all the infinite magical worlds beyond our own. Gemworld, Nightshade, Azarath, Myrra... probably even public domain magical lands like Farie, or Avalon. we imagine them layering out past each other infinitely.
There are exceptions, of course. We imagine the New Gods as having their own realm, but it's seperated by the laws of phsyics and the existence of higher dimensions rather than magic. On the opposite side of the spectrum, the Dreaming actually isn't part of the magical Paths Beyond but is in fact something else, something even more distant from the physical world, while simultaniously also existing right here.
I'm really glad you asked this question, because we had gotten so used to using this idea in our worldbuilding that we actually kind of forgot that we'd kind of made it up! The actual expression "Paths Beyond" was something we first used with Manitou Raven. The character describes his particular form of magic as "walking the Stony Path". When we wanted to send him out of time to arrive in modern times, we used "The Paths Beyond", and the name has become a blanket term for all the infinite magical worlds beyond our own. Gemworld, Nightshade, Azarath, Myrra... probably even public domain magical lands like Farie, or Avalon. we imagine them layering out past each other infinitely.
There are exceptions, of course. We imagine the New Gods as having their own realm, but it's seperated by the laws of phsyics and the existence of higher dimensions rather than magic. On the opposite side of the spectrum, the Dreaming actually isn't part of the magical Paths Beyond but is in fact something else, something even more distant from the physical world, while simultaniously also existing right here.
~"I think it would be cool if Robotman had gone up against the Brotherhood on his own before he joined the Doom Patrol, since both Cliff and the Brotherhood were active for many years for the Doom Patrol formed in this continuity and Cliff doesn't have any notable moments in all his years as a solo hero at the moment. Also Robotman's page still requires a name for someone to comment on it."
Now that the timelines are starting to get a little more robust as we do more and more cross-referencing, I guess it does look like we're detailing EVERYTHING in a character's story. That was never the idea; if there are long stretches with no content in a character's timeline, that doesn't mean nothing is happening. It just means that nothing is out there disrupting the status quo.
In this case, however, it's actually kind of the idea. After Robotman's brain is put into his initial robot body, the idea isn't that he immediately started bounding around fighting bad-guys... we put a full decade between that event and him joining the All-Star Squadron because it takes a LONG time to develop the technology at play. For a good long while, he's probably little more than a brain in a jar, which would make him interacting with the Brain a little anti-climatic.
By the time he's become autonomous enough to be self-sufficent, he's joined the All-Star Squadron. From there, its actually narratively relevant to the Brotherhood that they don't meet anyone before the Doom Patrol, and that they've been successfully operating in secret up until then; that idea is kind of built into their story.
Also, thank you for noticing the issue on the comment window on Robotman's page, it's fixed.
In this case, however, it's actually kind of the idea. After Robotman's brain is put into his initial robot body, the idea isn't that he immediately started bounding around fighting bad-guys... we put a full decade between that event and him joining the All-Star Squadron because it takes a LONG time to develop the technology at play. For a good long while, he's probably little more than a brain in a jar, which would make him interacting with the Brain a little anti-climatic.
By the time he's become autonomous enough to be self-sufficent, he's joined the All-Star Squadron. From there, its actually narratively relevant to the Brotherhood that they don't meet anyone before the Doom Patrol, and that they've been successfully operating in secret up until then; that idea is kind of built into their story.
Also, thank you for noticing the issue on the comment window on Robotman's page, it's fixed.
~"One story that I'm somewhat surprised didn't get adapted into this universe is the Young Justice storyI where Despero possessed J'onn and the team had ti exploit J'onn's fire weakness to expel him from his body; considering he's set up in the perfect spot to do it and Young Justice doesn't have many adventures on-record so far. If I had to guess the reasoning (other than just not really thinking about it when drafting the timeline of course), I'd say its because Secret played a key role in that story and she seemingly doesn't exist here, but I think that story can easily be told without her as it was with her."
I'm not trying to illustrate EVERY event these characters go through, just designing each characters timeline to put forth what feels like their idealized version, and the populating it all with cross-references.
In this case, we actually did deliberately choose to gloss over this period in Despero's timeline when he was essentially a disembodied force that appeared in different books possessing people, but it was for a good reason. We wanted his appearance to REALLY matter. He's not able to do it on his own, he was only able to possess Luthor with the help of Johnny Sorrow... and when he DOES, it literally takes the combined Justice League, Justice Society, and Watchtower to stop them. It's a major, major event. Because of that, we didn't want him to be continually popping in to fight the likes of just Supergirl or just Young Justice.
In this case, we actually did deliberately choose to gloss over this period in Despero's timeline when he was essentially a disembodied force that appeared in different books possessing people, but it was for a good reason. We wanted his appearance to REALLY matter. He's not able to do it on his own, he was only able to possess Luthor with the help of Johnny Sorrow... and when he DOES, it literally takes the combined Justice League, Justice Society, and Watchtower to stop them. It's a major, major event. Because of that, we didn't want him to be continually popping in to fight the likes of just Supergirl or just Young Justice.
~"I love Flamebird! i am glad you are writing her as the true hero she is and not a joke! She is attractive, intelligent, disciplined and motivating. Flamebird should be written like this; she is not someone who waits by a phone. She is better than that! Flamebird is important to Nightwing and the Titans. If not currently on a team, you may consider her for another operative for Oracle."
I'm glad you approve! Flamebird is one of those characters that you could skip over if you were just relying on regular cannon, because this really is an example of the comics just not quite knowing what to do with their character.
I do absolutely remember having a conversation about adding Flamebird to the Birds of Prey, but I think where we ultimately came down was that her main contribution was in the simplicty of her approach, and if we added her to a team it would actually diminsh her quite a bit.
I do absolutely remember having a conversation about adding Flamebird to the Birds of Prey, but I think where we ultimately came down was that her main contribution was in the simplicty of her approach, and if we added her to a team it would actually diminsh her quite a bit.
~"Just to clarify on Kendra's ethnicity; Pre-Flashpoint she was meant to a White Latina, wheras Post-Flashpoint and in all adaptations released since then she's been Afro-Latina. Speaking personally I like her being Afro-Latina more because it helps differentiate her even further from Shayera and Shiera."
Ah, okay. Thank you for the clarification.
I definitely agree, the changes to Kendra's ethnicity have absolutely all been great. I guess I just assumed that she might be Egyptian just from a story perspective, but that can stil be a part of her Afro-Latina background, right?
I definitely agree, the changes to Kendra's ethnicity have absolutely all been great. I guess I just assumed that she might be Egyptian just from a story perspective, but that can stil be a part of her Afro-Latina background, right?
~"I am intrigued with the idea of Tigress's son, seeing as he's around the same age as Lian and Lyta. Will he one day join them as a hero, or will Icicle Jr. be the first villain of a new generation?"
Well he's definitely going to be INVOLVED, right?
One of my favorite parts of the story we came up with for Tigress was the cycle of her family, and how her story is largely about breaking out of that cycle with the help of the heroes she's befriended. So I'd like to imagine that, if that story is successful, then the best representation of that would be for her kid to be among the heroes of his generation.
Even if he has ice powers (he will), he's probably less likely to use a name that references his father than to somehow honor his mom. Maybe some sort of ice-blade wielding martial artist? I wonder if anyone has ever thought of a character like that before...
One of my favorite parts of the story we came up with for Tigress was the cycle of her family, and how her story is largely about breaking out of that cycle with the help of the heroes she's befriended. So I'd like to imagine that, if that story is successful, then the best representation of that would be for her kid to be among the heroes of his generation.
Even if he has ice powers (he will), he's probably less likely to use a name that references his father than to somehow honor his mom. Maybe some sort of ice-blade wielding martial artist? I wonder if anyone has ever thought of a character like that before...
~ "One thing that i really liked about the Titans roster is that it covered characters who aren't on the team yet, but will join them in the near-future, and i think it would be really cool to see that done with other teams too, to really paint a picture of what the future holds for your version of the DC universe"
We actually do quite a bit of planning for the future of different teams and characters, especially for the big marquee characters (Batman has an even further-future proposal). The Titans just happened to clearly all be ready to transiton to something, so it was clearly necesary to have a new team of characters prepped for their future as Titans. They're not the only group that's looking forward; teams like the Watchtower and Doom Patrol have JUST had their lineups reset with the intention of setting them up for the future.
Also, if you look VERY hard... There's pretty clearly an even further-future group of heroes that are going to be major players much further down the line. Lian Harper, Jonathan Kent, Helena Kyle, Shiloh Free, Iris West, Mareena... there's a whole future generation of heroes that are either still small children, infants, or in many cases haven't even been born yet.
Also, if you look VERY hard... There's pretty clearly an even further-future group of heroes that are going to be major players much further down the line. Lian Harper, Jonathan Kent, Helena Kyle, Shiloh Free, Iris West, Mareena... there's a whole future generation of heroes that are either still small children, infants, or in many cases haven't even been born yet.
~ "Well, since you asked, Monsieur Mallah has to go to human prison where he is a normal inmate who hangs out in the yard. Why? Because even the most mundane parts of the DC universe becoming visibly saturated with weirdness as the timeline progresses is always fun. My policy is to take any excuse to do Sub-Diego style stuff."
It’s really going to throw off the prison politics if one of the inmates is a literal talking gorilla.
~"Starfire’s arc is all about her becoming an Earthling in her heart bc of her values and relationships growing there. Taking her away from there just because of ONE guy is a complete disservice to that growth she went through. She has relationships with Donna, Raven, Vic, that are very important to her and her character yet, just because Dick isn’t romantically involved with her, she has to be put out of the way and leave them forever. Heaven forbid she stays friends. (Not to mention it feels like you’ve reduced and screwed around with Dick and Kory’s history to make Dick and Barbara the more “valid” “endgame” ship.) Personally not a huge fan of this."
~"Not the biggest fan of having Dick and Kory’s relationship be a teenage affair at all considering they were 19 when they met. Idk it bothers me. Nor am I really a fan of the ending of their relationship and Starfire’s role in his life as well as kinda reducing her other relationships on Earth. Or who knows maybe I’m just biased since I’m a Dickkory fan and Starfire’s one of my personal favorites 🤷♂️"
Both of these comments are definitely by the same person :)
The Dick & Kori vs Dick & Babs debate was always going to be a minefield for us, because no matter which way you go, you're guaranteed to be pissing SOMEONE off. I feel like I've already stated everything that went into this decision pretty thoroughly, and while I certainly respect that you have your own preferences, I'd at least like to try to respond to the points being made here without implying that your perspective is any less valid than ours.
Personally… yes, we absolutely think of Dick and Babs as a more functional adult relationship. Dick and Kori are a great young couple, but if you actually read the stories that take place while they're together, they're always fueled by the soap opera drama of those old Titans books. They're volatile and passionate, but they're not exactly in sync with each other. To us, this reads as the sort of relationship you have when you're younger, vs the ones you find later in life when you understand more about what you need from your partner. So this isn't us wanting one relationship more than the other, and adjusting the story to fit our prefered outcome... this is us looking at the actual relationships as depicted in the comics and acknowledging what we think the actual outcome of them will be, and how they will actually play out.
Obviously, everyone's mileage is going to vary on that one.
Once you make that call, and decide that Dick & Kori aren't going to be together forever, then it's actually kind of a disservice to her to keep her around on Earth. This is honestly the first time I've heard any reference to Starfire's arc being about her becoming an earthling in her heart, and while you're certainly welcome to your own headcanon, personally that seems like a HUGE departure from the character as I understand her. This is an incredibly powerful alien princess… and we just want her to hang around? She can still maintain her friendships with people on Earth while honoring her role among her own people, and doing that doesn't feel like undermining her own story just because we like her and want her here.
So really the exercise then becomes this; if you'd like her to stay on Earth… well… why should she? What role can she fill on Earth that is actually worthy of her? We can absolutely have her stay here if we can come up with a reason for it, it just has to be more important than serving as the queen of her entire home planet, and need to come from somewhere other than 'because I want her here.'
I want her here too, so honestly, if you have a good explanation, I'm interested :)
The Dick & Kori vs Dick & Babs debate was always going to be a minefield for us, because no matter which way you go, you're guaranteed to be pissing SOMEONE off. I feel like I've already stated everything that went into this decision pretty thoroughly, and while I certainly respect that you have your own preferences, I'd at least like to try to respond to the points being made here without implying that your perspective is any less valid than ours.
Personally… yes, we absolutely think of Dick and Babs as a more functional adult relationship. Dick and Kori are a great young couple, but if you actually read the stories that take place while they're together, they're always fueled by the soap opera drama of those old Titans books. They're volatile and passionate, but they're not exactly in sync with each other. To us, this reads as the sort of relationship you have when you're younger, vs the ones you find later in life when you understand more about what you need from your partner. So this isn't us wanting one relationship more than the other, and adjusting the story to fit our prefered outcome... this is us looking at the actual relationships as depicted in the comics and acknowledging what we think the actual outcome of them will be, and how they will actually play out.
Obviously, everyone's mileage is going to vary on that one.
Once you make that call, and decide that Dick & Kori aren't going to be together forever, then it's actually kind of a disservice to her to keep her around on Earth. This is honestly the first time I've heard any reference to Starfire's arc being about her becoming an earthling in her heart, and while you're certainly welcome to your own headcanon, personally that seems like a HUGE departure from the character as I understand her. This is an incredibly powerful alien princess… and we just want her to hang around? She can still maintain her friendships with people on Earth while honoring her role among her own people, and doing that doesn't feel like undermining her own story just because we like her and want her here.
So really the exercise then becomes this; if you'd like her to stay on Earth… well… why should she? What role can she fill on Earth that is actually worthy of her? We can absolutely have her stay here if we can come up with a reason for it, it just has to be more important than serving as the queen of her entire home planet, and need to come from somewhere other than 'because I want her here.'
I want her here too, so honestly, if you have a good explanation, I'm interested :)
~ "I actually like the Arsenal with the baseball cap look. I think it ties to his "against thew grain" persona"
Well, we're certainly all allowed our own opinions, and I don't want to suggest that anyone's opinion is wrong, especially when what we're talking about is ultimately just comics, right?
Personally… as a person who followed the evolution of this character for decades and loved all of it, what I saw was the character being broken beyond recognition in Cry For Justice, and then having his entire history chucked in the bin in the new 52… leaving behind a character with none of the history and growth of the one I loved, whose whole personality was now 'has a hat'.
Now, I recognize that this isn't by itself a reason to dislike the hat, other than the fact that it's totemic of everything that's been stripped from the character and replaced BY the hat… but that's what I see when I look at it.
Also… I know people whose whole personality is 'has a hat', and I bet you do too .. not generally a character I want to follow the exploits of.
Personally… as a person who followed the evolution of this character for decades and loved all of it, what I saw was the character being broken beyond recognition in Cry For Justice, and then having his entire history chucked in the bin in the new 52… leaving behind a character with none of the history and growth of the one I loved, whose whole personality was now 'has a hat'.
Now, I recognize that this isn't by itself a reason to dislike the hat, other than the fact that it's totemic of everything that's been stripped from the character and replaced BY the hat… but that's what I see when I look at it.
Also… I know people whose whole personality is 'has a hat', and I bet you do too .. not generally a character I want to follow the exploits of.
~ "Has there ever been a time where you've seen a new take on a character that you already put on the site that made you seriously consider overhauling them to fit closer to that version?"
I'm sure there are other more obscure examples, but the big one is Aquaman after the James Wan movie came out. I was always a devote of the Peter David origin from the 90's, where Aquaman was abandoned on Mercy Reef by the Atlantans, and found by his lighthouse keeper father, so that was the origin we used. The movie proved just how much better the classic origin was, so I changed it pretty quickly.
Trying to think of other times that's happened… I think the animated Green Lantern series is responsible for me loosening up my strick anti-Geoff-Johns Green Lantern policy and adapt versions of Atrocitius & Saint-Walker, but that might have been before the site went up. I also severely re-thought Black Lighting after reading his year one miniseries.
Trying to think of other times that's happened… I think the animated Green Lantern series is responsible for me loosening up my strick anti-Geoff-Johns Green Lantern policy and adapt versions of Atrocitius & Saint-Walker, but that might have been before the site went up. I also severely re-thought Black Lighting after reading his year one miniseries.
~"Hello there! I just discovered this project, and I'M OBSESSED, this scratches the completionist itch in my brain, and the detailed notes and thoughts on very very minor, often overlooked characters is something I personally love! This really inspires me to do my own headcanons and stories. This whole thing is so fascinating, and I really want to ask a couple questions about the process:
1. How often do you experience frustrating domino effects in changing certain characters? What I mean is when you change a detail about one character, impacting a bunch of other parts of the history, meaning you have to rethink those parts too. Do you actually find it frustrating, or do you like the challenge?
2. Typically, do you work from the timeline to a character, or the other way around? I imagine it depends, but say there's a character you really like, but doesn't necessarily translate well into the timeline. Would you try to reshuffle to fit the character, or would you prioritize the integrity of the timeline?
3. How in the WORLD do you stay organized? I have plenty of headcannons myself, but fitting them all into a single project, making it cohesive, and logically?? That in and of itself is so impressive, it's hurting my brain a little. Do you split the "work" with your group, or do you all kind of have your hands in everything?
Sorry if this is way too long and if you've already answered questions like this, I'm just so fascinated by what your doing here! :) I hope you have splendid day, and I can't wait to see what you come up with next!"
1. How often do you experience frustrating domino effects in changing certain characters? What I mean is when you change a detail about one character, impacting a bunch of other parts of the history, meaning you have to rethink those parts too. Do you actually find it frustrating, or do you like the challenge?
2. Typically, do you work from the timeline to a character, or the other way around? I imagine it depends, but say there's a character you really like, but doesn't necessarily translate well into the timeline. Would you try to reshuffle to fit the character, or would you prioritize the integrity of the timeline?
3. How in the WORLD do you stay organized? I have plenty of headcannons myself, but fitting them all into a single project, making it cohesive, and logically?? That in and of itself is so impressive, it's hurting my brain a little. Do you split the "work" with your group, or do you all kind of have your hands in everything?
Sorry if this is way too long and if you've already answered questions like this, I'm just so fascinated by what your doing here! :) I hope you have splendid day, and I can't wait to see what you come up with next!"
Thank you so much for your praise, it means the world, but even moreso for enjoying the project with us! We would absolutely love to see some of your projects as well!
Here's some answers to your questions:
1: All the time. Pretty much any time we change anything at all, there's some level of domino effect. We've gotten pretty good at chasing them down, it just requires a little patience, and to a certain degree, that's actually a big part of the fun.
2: In general, before you add a character you want to distill them down to the core concepts that they represent, and what they bring to the timeline, so in that way I'd say the timeline comes first, because every character and story we add should theoretically be in service to it. It's happened plenty of times that there were characters we liked, and even did a ton of work on, before we realized they just don't fit, or don't add anything we actually need. (if you read the very next comment after this one, you'll actually see some early steps of this actual process)
3: Well.... you're kind of looking at it :) While the ideas the project is built from come from lots of long conversations with a small group of friends, the structure of it and how its organized is really just an outward projection of how I tend to think about stuff I like anyway. I'm a pretty classic ADD kid; I struggle with organization when it comes to everyday life, but when it comes to stuff I'm excited about... well... it looks like this.
Here's some answers to your questions:
1: All the time. Pretty much any time we change anything at all, there's some level of domino effect. We've gotten pretty good at chasing them down, it just requires a little patience, and to a certain degree, that's actually a big part of the fun.
2: In general, before you add a character you want to distill them down to the core concepts that they represent, and what they bring to the timeline, so in that way I'd say the timeline comes first, because every character and story we add should theoretically be in service to it. It's happened plenty of times that there were characters we liked, and even did a ton of work on, before we realized they just don't fit, or don't add anything we actually need. (if you read the very next comment after this one, you'll actually see some early steps of this actual process)
3: Well.... you're kind of looking at it :) While the ideas the project is built from come from lots of long conversations with a small group of friends, the structure of it and how its organized is really just an outward projection of how I tend to think about stuff I like anyway. I'm a pretty classic ADD kid; I struggle with organization when it comes to everyday life, but when it comes to stuff I'm excited about... well... it looks like this.
~"I'd like to try to make a case for an addition to the wartime JSA roster: Will Everett I, AKA Amazing-Man.
On top of have a cool power-set and being a neat example of ethnic diversity in what is otherwise a very white team, the coolest thing about Will, to me at least, is that he's well-known in-universe for being a pioneer of the Civil Rights Movement throughout the 1960s, right behind Malcolm X and MLK themselves. It's a position in comics that's totally unique to him, and for a team that's all about legacy, is there anything more appropriate than having a man whose legacy is felt in every black hero (if not all non-white heroes) in the present era being among their ranks?
I will say that I totally understand why you didn't include him at first; with the Ragnarok event in-place you'd have to either work around it to keep him around (which feels a bit silly and would needlessly complicate things) or just throw him into Ragnarok and lose the thing that makes him stand out so much. However, now that the Ragnarok event is being removed and his story can still be told organically I really do think that he has the potential to be something special and add a really cool wrinkle to the tapestry of your DC universe."
On top of have a cool power-set and being a neat example of ethnic diversity in what is otherwise a very white team, the coolest thing about Will, to me at least, is that he's well-known in-universe for being a pioneer of the Civil Rights Movement throughout the 1960s, right behind Malcolm X and MLK themselves. It's a position in comics that's totally unique to him, and for a team that's all about legacy, is there anything more appropriate than having a man whose legacy is felt in every black hero (if not all non-white heroes) in the present era being among their ranks?
I will say that I totally understand why you didn't include him at first; with the Ragnarok event in-place you'd have to either work around it to keep him around (which feels a bit silly and would needlessly complicate things) or just throw him into Ragnarok and lose the thing that makes him stand out so much. However, now that the Ragnarok event is being removed and his story can still be told organically I really do think that he has the potential to be something special and add a really cool wrinkle to the tapestry of your DC universe."
I really appreciate a pitch like this. Especially when you're RIGHT, this would be a cool character to include.
A small detail that we should remember as we take a look at this; Will Everett was not actually a Golden Age character, and wasn't part of the actual JSA during it's publication; he was retconned onto the team in 1983 by Roy Thomas, who thought (correctly) that the team REALLY needed some diversity, and added him to the All Star Squadron. Also, a lot of the history assigned to this character, which you pointed out, never actually happened in cannon. It was all just referred to after the fact in the pages of Geoff Johns Justice Society while introducing his new character Markus Clay, the third Amazing Man.
Not that any of that is reason not to include him, it just gives us a little context that there aren't any actual stories to draw from here. No one was writing stories in the 60's about a classic black superhero from the 40's joining the civil rights movement, even though that would have been dope as hell.
Also, trying to include ANY activity happening during the 60's becomes very problematic, because that's the absolute limit of how far that timeline can go before we have to transition over to the 'X years ago' timline, and once you're there you really can't make any reference to real historical events that would tether the timeline to a specific era. To that end, we'd really need to depict his death sometimes in the early sixties, although given that he's meant to be a major figure in the civil rights movement, that's probably not a stretch. After a little googling, we might actually get a good framework to build his timeline on by basing it loosely on the story og real life civil rights leader Medgar Evers.
Keep checking in, this feels like it might actually be doable!
A small detail that we should remember as we take a look at this; Will Everett was not actually a Golden Age character, and wasn't part of the actual JSA during it's publication; he was retconned onto the team in 1983 by Roy Thomas, who thought (correctly) that the team REALLY needed some diversity, and added him to the All Star Squadron. Also, a lot of the history assigned to this character, which you pointed out, never actually happened in cannon. It was all just referred to after the fact in the pages of Geoff Johns Justice Society while introducing his new character Markus Clay, the third Amazing Man.
Not that any of that is reason not to include him, it just gives us a little context that there aren't any actual stories to draw from here. No one was writing stories in the 60's about a classic black superhero from the 40's joining the civil rights movement, even though that would have been dope as hell.
Also, trying to include ANY activity happening during the 60's becomes very problematic, because that's the absolute limit of how far that timeline can go before we have to transition over to the 'X years ago' timline, and once you're there you really can't make any reference to real historical events that would tether the timeline to a specific era. To that end, we'd really need to depict his death sometimes in the early sixties, although given that he's meant to be a major figure in the civil rights movement, that's probably not a stretch. After a little googling, we might actually get a good framework to build his timeline on by basing it loosely on the story og real life civil rights leader Medgar Evers.
Keep checking in, this feels like it might actually be doable!
~"Critique: You've not shyed away from weird, comic-booky contrivances, but Alan Scott taking decades to be rebuilt by space surgeons is very "excuse-forward." Think how clean Supergirl being discovered in suspended animation is versus her other origins/explanations. I don't know much about Alan Scott, but him being absorbed by the Starheart until he's released in another story where the Starheart is rebuilt or activated or something might be cleaner."
~"Hooray for Evil Star! I love that weirdo.
This works a lot better than Ragnarok and I look forward to seeing what you consider doing for Flash and the Hawks."
This works a lot better than Ragnarok and I look forward to seeing what you consider doing for Flash and the Hawks."
I really like the phrase 'excuse-forward', it really paints a picture, and I see exactly what you mean.
This might honestly wind up being a 'your mileage may vary' situation. I can totally see your perspective here, I think ultimately I just feel differently; both verisons of the story feel to me to be equally 'excuse-forward', and I think the space surgeon verion just feels more fun to me?
Anyway, I'm really glad the use of Evil Star actually prompted a positive reaction; it's cool when we can find a way to use a character we previously thought was unusable. Interestingly, I'm actually less worried about the characters that have to time jump than i am about all the other characters who DON'T... because now I have to write the rest of their lives and give them all deaths that get them out of the timeline before they start causing problems. We'll see how THAT works.
This might honestly wind up being a 'your mileage may vary' situation. I can totally see your perspective here, I think ultimately I just feel differently; both verisons of the story feel to me to be equally 'excuse-forward', and I think the space surgeon verion just feels more fun to me?
Anyway, I'm really glad the use of Evil Star actually prompted a positive reaction; it's cool when we can find a way to use a character we previously thought was unusable. Interestingly, I'm actually less worried about the characters that have to time jump than i am about all the other characters who DON'T... because now I have to write the rest of their lives and give them all deaths that get them out of the timeline before they start causing problems. We'll see how THAT works.
~"You don’t always include it, but even with minor characters, I’d love to hear your thoughts on their “ideal” overall visual look or costume design. As someone who draws these guys I always find it fascinating to know what specifics people can articulate as appealing or important to their designs."
Thank you for noticing! Generally I add that section whenever I have any observations about a character's costume or look, and if that section isn't there, it's because i just didn't have any thoughts on the subject. I do try to keep it in mind, though.
Of course, if I started recieving art based on the observations I make about characters, I would absolutely be compelled to make more.... Just saying...
Of course, if I started recieving art based on the observations I make about characters, I would absolutely be compelled to make more.... Just saying...
~"Having Hippolyta active as hero before Diana still feels a bit hinky to me.
You are correct that not having her use the Wonder Woman name or costume does make it feel a LOT less hinky."
You are correct that not having her use the Wonder Woman name or costume does make it feel a LOT less hinky."
You just have to let it happen, man. It REALLY works once you let it. :)
~"I admire the effort you've put into this. You've included a lot of Lanterns I probably wouldn't have bothered with, but I can't really object with any of your choices. Except for the jokey Spock Lantern, that's a bit over the line for me. You even gave G'Nort and Ch'p some dignity! Well done, sir. I think something that might be missing is a John Stewart victory before the destruction of the central battery. Beating the frame job for the destruction of Xanshi is still about his failure to save Xanshi. In the Kyle Raynor issues of Green Lantern John read like a wounded vet who was let down the corps he gave the prime of his life to, so an absence of big damn hero moments made sense. If John is supposed to be a big damn hero moving forward then I think he needs some kind of history of victory to back that up. A thought I had would be to have Hal be forbidden from serving on Earth after Despero destroys the satellite. Something like he conquered a bunch of planets before coming to Earth and the Guardians feeling like Hal could have stopped him earlier if he hadn't been so Earth focused. Then John could be the guy who beats Sonar. And Hal's banishment from Earth when Coast City was destroyed could be another motivating factor in his assault on Oa."
This is the very first time I've ever gotten a comment including a story suggestion that I IMMEDIATELY knew had a point. I don't strictly agree with every little point here, but the core argument that John needs to have more big hero action before the fall of the Green Lanterns is just so unbelievably obvious.
We're having conversations about it, but this was a big deal. Thank you for it.
We're having conversations about it, but this was a big deal. Thank you for it.
~ "I found the source of the top image! jasskenster on Instagram, apparently he has done all the first 6 titans from the 2000s cartoon. https://www.instagram.com/p/BnRVAPqlKkX/"
Awesome! Well done! I'll make sure to link to the artist on the page, and to message them to let them know how much we love their work.
By all means, if anyone finds any artwork that I've used on a particular artists page, please let me know! Nothing I do here is for profit, and I make an effort to focus more on art taken right from the comics in question, but sometimes you find some unbelievably good art like this, and I always feel much better when I can link to the artist and make sure they're cool with me using it.
By all means, if anyone finds any artwork that I've used on a particular artists page, please let me know! Nothing I do here is for profit, and I make an effort to focus more on art taken right from the comics in question, but sometimes you find some unbelievably good art like this, and I always feel much better when I can link to the artist and make sure they're cool with me using it.
~ "I would pay to see a buddy cop show staring Ch'p and Mogo."
Right? Honestly, how do you argue with that? For not caring at all about comics, my wife is actually suprisingly good at making suggestions for what to do with them. It was also her idea for us to make Batwoman an American-born Mussad agent.
~ "Probably not too important, but do you have any states in mind for cities like Gotham and Metropolis?"
Boy do I ever.
I actually wrote about this somewhere, but I'm planning on one day starting pages for major places and objects, so I must have taken down the post. There's some precident for the locations of both cities that you can look up… some of which suggesting that the two cities are actually on opposite sides of a river from each other. That even happened in the Batman v Superman movie, if I remember correctly… but I'm sure I don't have to tell you how incorrect that idea is. There's no way Batman & Superman operate that close to each other.
Both cities are meant to be, at least at some level, allegories for versions of New York, but of course they operate in a world that includes New York. Generally Gotham is described as being a costal city in New Jersey, which makes a lot of sense… either in place of Atlantic City or a little further south. If you look at the area it looks a lot like maps of Gotham you might see elsewhere, built on a series of coastline-hugging islands around a river inlet.
From there, you basically want Metropolis to be at least a five hour drive away. Norfolk, VA sits right in the southern side of the Chesapeake Bay, and again, looks a lot like maps of Metropolis.
Some cities are harder to do, because they don't really have geographic cues. For Metropolis & Gotham specifically, though, these are where I imagine them.
I actually wrote about this somewhere, but I'm planning on one day starting pages for major places and objects, so I must have taken down the post. There's some precident for the locations of both cities that you can look up… some of which suggesting that the two cities are actually on opposite sides of a river from each other. That even happened in the Batman v Superman movie, if I remember correctly… but I'm sure I don't have to tell you how incorrect that idea is. There's no way Batman & Superman operate that close to each other.
Both cities are meant to be, at least at some level, allegories for versions of New York, but of course they operate in a world that includes New York. Generally Gotham is described as being a costal city in New Jersey, which makes a lot of sense… either in place of Atlantic City or a little further south. If you look at the area it looks a lot like maps of Gotham you might see elsewhere, built on a series of coastline-hugging islands around a river inlet.
From there, you basically want Metropolis to be at least a five hour drive away. Norfolk, VA sits right in the southern side of the Chesapeake Bay, and again, looks a lot like maps of Metropolis.
Some cities are harder to do, because they don't really have geographic cues. For Metropolis & Gotham specifically, though, these are where I imagine them.
~ "This was the most beautiful breakdown I have ever read for a character that has been near and dear to me for my entire life. Thank you."
Wow, thank you. I have so much more to say about Superman at some point, so it's bound to get longer, but I'm glad I'm on the right track.
~ "Hi.
I love your website in general and it's given me a lot to think about as I consider my own headcanon.
Now that you're including the Ultra-Humanite, I would suggest using him in place of Despero for Power Girl's origin. He was used as an enemy for Power Girl in Amanda Connor's run on the character, which I'm sure was itself a reference to the fact that both characters had ties to Superman in the past that have since been severed in modern continuity. It's a thin connection between the two characters, but more of a connection than I think has ever existed between Power Girl and Despero. On the other hand, I can respect your decision if you just want to give Despero more to do.
Either way, I enjoy reading through your ideas and will likely continue to do so as you continue."
I love your website in general and it's given me a lot to think about as I consider my own headcanon.
Now that you're including the Ultra-Humanite, I would suggest using him in place of Despero for Power Girl's origin. He was used as an enemy for Power Girl in Amanda Connor's run on the character, which I'm sure was itself a reference to the fact that both characters had ties to Superman in the past that have since been severed in modern continuity. It's a thin connection between the two characters, but more of a connection than I think has ever existed between Power Girl and Despero. On the other hand, I can respect your decision if you just want to give Despero more to do.
Either way, I enjoy reading through your ideas and will likely continue to do so as you continue."
Thanks for the suggestion! I see where you're going there. Let me give you a counter-argument, and you can tell me what you think;
We're trying to avoid situations where high levels of power become easily accessible on a wide scale. We're deliberately avoiding situations where a whole species has superpowers… or at least making sure that if they do, then that character is the last survivor of their species. Superman is probably the biggest issue with this; we want to be very careful not to make getting Kryptonian-level power an easy thing to do.
This is why we went with Despero. It's not just because we wanted to give him something to do, but he is a very particular mix of unique circumstances; he's using an advanced alien science that is beyond even his own species. Moreover, he's even operating outside the realm of science thanks to the Flames of Py'tar. He's actually undergone a bizarre change in power himself. He's practically tailor-made for the specific one-off task of transferring the power of a Kryptonian onto a human.
This will probably all make more sense once I actually make him on the site. Maybe I should include him when I update Power Girl.
Ultra-Humanite is cool… but he's an earth-based character. He's swapping brains between people and monkeys, not redistributing space-god powers. Sometimes (for me anyway) it's not really about whether or not the characters have any past connection… it's about the story role I want to fill and which character is best fit to that role.
We're trying to avoid situations where high levels of power become easily accessible on a wide scale. We're deliberately avoiding situations where a whole species has superpowers… or at least making sure that if they do, then that character is the last survivor of their species. Superman is probably the biggest issue with this; we want to be very careful not to make getting Kryptonian-level power an easy thing to do.
This is why we went with Despero. It's not just because we wanted to give him something to do, but he is a very particular mix of unique circumstances; he's using an advanced alien science that is beyond even his own species. Moreover, he's even operating outside the realm of science thanks to the Flames of Py'tar. He's actually undergone a bizarre change in power himself. He's practically tailor-made for the specific one-off task of transferring the power of a Kryptonian onto a human.
This will probably all make more sense once I actually make him on the site. Maybe I should include him when I update Power Girl.
Ultra-Humanite is cool… but he's an earth-based character. He's swapping brains between people and monkeys, not redistributing space-god powers. Sometimes (for me anyway) it's not really about whether or not the characters have any past connection… it's about the story role I want to fill and which character is best fit to that role.
~ "I think that It's a bit of a shame that your interpretation of the Ultra-Humanite never got to fight Superman at least once, considering that he was Clark''s first real supervillain ever and all, but I definitely get why you'd place more of a focus on the Delores Winters component of the character's history over having him just be yet another archetypical mad scientist type that runs around the DCU, and there's definitely something compelling and metatextually fitting about him being taken out by the OTHER major psychic ape super-genius antagonist at DC right as he's beginning his rise to power."
It is a bit of a shame, but it's probably worth pointing out that the version of Superman from those early issues is wildly different from Superman as we know him today.
In fact, DC went so far as to use an entirely different character to fill the role that Superman played in those old Golden Age stories. That's where we got Iron Munro… and we very deliberately have the old Mad Scientist Ultra-Humanite going up against Munro, so in a way, I like to think that we absolutely replicated those old stories.
In fact, DC went so far as to use an entirely different character to fill the role that Superman played in those old Golden Age stories. That's where we got Iron Munro… and we very deliberately have the old Mad Scientist Ultra-Humanite going up against Munro, so in a way, I like to think that we absolutely replicated those old stories.
~ "If you don't understand my language, fine.
—INTRODUCTION:
Eu sou Nativo do País Brasil, amo o Universo DC e tenho uns suggestion de un Brasileiro muito esquecido, que voces poderiam introdu se seu DC Continuity Project.
José Hernandez is a Green Lantern alternative, to be more precise he is an original character from Terra-D, our quadrines are his first appearance in History of Legends of DC Universe: Crisis on Infinito Earth The Untold Story. He was a Brazilian test pilot who received the power of a member of a Green Lantern Corps member who landed on the ground. Immediately after receiving the mantle of Green Lantern of Sector 2814, José was to fight Crisis on Infinite EARTH as a hero of other heroes of Terra-D, José was killed in his first day as Lanterna Verde (Green Lantern in Portuguese) to be sacrificed salvando the Supergirl desse universe.
It can be a recruiter for the restoration of the Tropics of the Lanternas Verdes no seu universo (Green Lantern Corps in Portuguese).
—CHARACTER STORY:
16 years ago — is born José Baptista Fernandes.
9 years ago — 7-years-old José is left by his parents in the care of his godparents.
8 years ago — 8-years-old José is saved by Guy Gardner during a Justice League mission in Brazil.
1 years ago — 15-year-old José is found and recruited by a ring of power from the Green Lantern Corps.
Now — 16-years-old José pairs up with 17-year-old Green Lantern Simon Baz.
José's Costume
José wears the conventional costume of the Green Lanterns corps, and wears the traditional mask of corps.
—JOSÉ'S FUTURE:
José sees Kyle as an older brother.
José argues a lot with his partner Simon Baz, most of the time José teases Simon, even though the two are friends. José is very lazy, cheating and often an idiot José aspires to be a better person and also a better green lantern.
With time José will mature and improve as a hero and person.
Suggestion 2:
You could also create your versions of Simon Baz and Jessica Cruz.
Did you like the suggestions? If you don't understand Portuguese, just speak."
—INTRODUCTION:
Eu sou Nativo do País Brasil, amo o Universo DC e tenho uns suggestion de un Brasileiro muito esquecido, que voces poderiam introdu se seu DC Continuity Project.
José Hernandez is a Green Lantern alternative, to be more precise he is an original character from Terra-D, our quadrines are his first appearance in History of Legends of DC Universe: Crisis on Infinito Earth The Untold Story. He was a Brazilian test pilot who received the power of a member of a Green Lantern Corps member who landed on the ground. Immediately after receiving the mantle of Green Lantern of Sector 2814, José was to fight Crisis on Infinite EARTH as a hero of other heroes of Terra-D, José was killed in his first day as Lanterna Verde (Green Lantern in Portuguese) to be sacrificed salvando the Supergirl desse universe.
It can be a recruiter for the restoration of the Tropics of the Lanternas Verdes no seu universo (Green Lantern Corps in Portuguese).
—CHARACTER STORY:
16 years ago — is born José Baptista Fernandes.
9 years ago — 7-years-old José is left by his parents in the care of his godparents.
8 years ago — 8-years-old José is saved by Guy Gardner during a Justice League mission in Brazil.
1 years ago — 15-year-old José is found and recruited by a ring of power from the Green Lantern Corps.
Now — 16-years-old José pairs up with 17-year-old Green Lantern Simon Baz.
José's Costume
José wears the conventional costume of the Green Lanterns corps, and wears the traditional mask of corps.
—JOSÉ'S FUTURE:
José sees Kyle as an older brother.
José argues a lot with his partner Simon Baz, most of the time José teases Simon, even though the two are friends. José is very lazy, cheating and often an idiot José aspires to be a better person and also a better green lantern.
With time José will mature and improve as a hero and person.
Suggestion 2:
You could also create your versions of Simon Baz and Jessica Cruz.
Did you like the suggestions? If you don't understand Portuguese, just speak."
This comment showed up half-translated in my inbox... I think Google must have auto-translated it for me. What a wild time to be alive.
The part of his message explaining who the character was wasn't translated at first, and I actually thought this was someone sending me their own original character. Thinking I was seeing someone use my format for their own character was surreal.
Because I'm an idiot, I spent a while researching this before I thought to actually translate the rest of the comment. What I found is exactly what is described here: this character appeared in one issue EVER in 1999… something called Legends of the DC Universe: Crisis on Infinite Earths, something clearly spun out of the 1998 anthology series Legends of the DC Universe, which I've absolutely enjoyed and is on my list of series to pick up when I find them. This issue, which is actually by Crisis writer Marv Wolfman, establishes the previously unknown Earth-D that is, spoilers, destroyed by the end of the issue. The standout feature of Earth-D is that the Justice League is replaced by the 'Justice Alliance, which features the same heroes but with a more diverse, international cast, including the Brazilian Green Lantern Jose, who actually has his origin story play out in the issue.
There really wouldn't be a way to use the character from that one issue; we just don't get enough of him. But the commenter isn't really trying to do that… they're basically building a new character and using the name of this one-off comic character. Honestly… I would LOVE for this person to build their own fan-continuity because if this is the level of esotera they're looking to plum in order to get where they want to go, then the results are going to be bonkers.
For us… well, we struggle to include the number of Green Lanterns we already include. If we were going to add more, we'd be adding Jessica Cruz.
I'm also kinda dancing around the real reason for this comment, because I don't really have an answer for it. This is clearly a reader from Brazil, wanting to see someone like themself in comics, and having to go to a ridiculous length to find someone they can include. I hear you… comics really did spend way to long acting like the default person only looked and spoke one way, and lived in one place. I'd be super down for a comic featuring a new character working in Brazil, or even a re-imagining of an existing character as a Brazilian person.
Just not a Green Lantern, please. There are so many human lanterns already it's borderline insane.
The part of his message explaining who the character was wasn't translated at first, and I actually thought this was someone sending me their own original character. Thinking I was seeing someone use my format for their own character was surreal.
Because I'm an idiot, I spent a while researching this before I thought to actually translate the rest of the comment. What I found is exactly what is described here: this character appeared in one issue EVER in 1999… something called Legends of the DC Universe: Crisis on Infinite Earths, something clearly spun out of the 1998 anthology series Legends of the DC Universe, which I've absolutely enjoyed and is on my list of series to pick up when I find them. This issue, which is actually by Crisis writer Marv Wolfman, establishes the previously unknown Earth-D that is, spoilers, destroyed by the end of the issue. The standout feature of Earth-D is that the Justice League is replaced by the 'Justice Alliance, which features the same heroes but with a more diverse, international cast, including the Brazilian Green Lantern Jose, who actually has his origin story play out in the issue.
There really wouldn't be a way to use the character from that one issue; we just don't get enough of him. But the commenter isn't really trying to do that… they're basically building a new character and using the name of this one-off comic character. Honestly… I would LOVE for this person to build their own fan-continuity because if this is the level of esotera they're looking to plum in order to get where they want to go, then the results are going to be bonkers.
For us… well, we struggle to include the number of Green Lanterns we already include. If we were going to add more, we'd be adding Jessica Cruz.
I'm also kinda dancing around the real reason for this comment, because I don't really have an answer for it. This is clearly a reader from Brazil, wanting to see someone like themself in comics, and having to go to a ridiculous length to find someone they can include. I hear you… comics really did spend way to long acting like the default person only looked and spoke one way, and lived in one place. I'd be super down for a comic featuring a new character working in Brazil, or even a re-imagining of an existing character as a Brazilian person.
Just not a Green Lantern, please. There are so many human lanterns already it's borderline insane.
~ "Hey, could you guys go through the pages that mention Grant Morrison and update the pronouns on them to they/them to match their non-binary gender identity? I noticed that they're still referred to by male pronouns while rereading Jimmy Olsen's page and figured that I should ask about it since while I know that all the pages that talk about Morrison were posted before they came out as non-binary and as such totally get why they'd have he/him pronouns on them, I think that it's very important to properly represent people accurately to how they wish to be viewed as, especially regarding their gender..
I apologise in advance if this came across as too demanding or anything like that; I just want to make sure that Grant's true gender identity is being acknowledged and respected."
I apologise in advance if this came across as too demanding or anything like that; I just want to make sure that Grant's true gender identity is being acknowledged and respected."
I did an immediate update to the site when I saw this and did my best to comb through to find all the instances of me talking about Grant Morrison to make sure I was using the correct pronouns, but I talk about them a LOT, so please… if any of you find any references to Morrison and see that I didn't correct any uses of he/him pronouns in favor of the correct they/them, please let me know!
~"yeeeeet"
I can't tell if this person is expressing displeasure over the fact that we included Arthur Jr in our timeline, or if they are literally telling us to yeet a baby?
Which, strangely enough, with the baby in question, might actually be an in-cannon request?
Which, strangely enough, with the baby in question, might actually be an in-cannon request?
~"Do you guys keep an archive of older versions of the character pages, and if you do, do you ever plan on making that archive publically available for those who like seeing how the site's evolved over time?"
I'm sure it will come as a shock to no one, but I'm actually a severely amateur web designer. not only do I not have backups of older versions of the pages, I struggle to have backups of the CURRENT version.
I do have one fun record, however; the timelines have evolved quite a bit but they were originally all created in this cool, heavy, leather-bound book of graph paper I bought god-knows how long ago. The project was worked out either on lunchbreaks at work, or while I sat at the counter in my favorite diner (which explains one very prominent coffee stain between Helga Jace & Abin Sur.) It's binding is starting to come apart a little because this book traveled everywhere with me for a long time, so now that it's finished it sits on the shelf with my trade paperbacks, coming down just to go with me to conventions to collect signatures.
My wife has been suggesting that I try to scan all the pages of the book so I can upload it here somehow, because it really is a cool artifact. Is that something I should try to do?
I do have one fun record, however; the timelines have evolved quite a bit but they were originally all created in this cool, heavy, leather-bound book of graph paper I bought god-knows how long ago. The project was worked out either on lunchbreaks at work, or while I sat at the counter in my favorite diner (which explains one very prominent coffee stain between Helga Jace & Abin Sur.) It's binding is starting to come apart a little because this book traveled everywhere with me for a long time, so now that it's finished it sits on the shelf with my trade paperbacks, coming down just to go with me to conventions to collect signatures.
My wife has been suggesting that I try to scan all the pages of the book so I can upload it here somehow, because it really is a cool artifact. Is that something I should try to do?
~"Columbus reached America in 1492, so if these events are supposed to be set in Pre-Colonial times shouldn't they be in the 1400s and not the 1500s?"
You might be suprised, but these are actually the parts of this project I enjoy the most, where I wind up researching things that I would probably never have researched otherwise. To respond to your question; You do kind of need to remember that the Americas aren't a monolith; Columbus landing in the Bahamas in 1492 didn't really have a huge immediate effect on the Iriquoi nation in what is now Ontario and upstate New York?
But more to the point, 'Pre-Colonial' isn't a term I made up. It's an actual period of American History, describing the period predating 1600, which was followed by the 'Colonial' period from 1607 to 1776.
But more to the point, 'Pre-Colonial' isn't a term I made up. It's an actual period of American History, describing the period predating 1600, which was followed by the 'Colonial' period from 1607 to 1776.
~"In your Dc continuity project thing you should've made Bart Allen the main flash as he never got to be in the comics"
I know, this comment feels like a plant, but I swear to god, it's real :)
You are absolutely welcome to your opinion, and If you want to make Bart Allen your canon Flash in your Fan Timeline, then I'll be the first person to check it out. Personally, I've actually written pretty extensively about how Wally West is the definitive Flash... you can check it out here. I was comparing Wally to Barry, and basically my point was that while Barry has 29 years of history and an important role to play in the Satellite Era Justice League, most of his tenure as the Flash was in a mileau of silver age silliness. Wally has 26 years as Kid Flash, and then a further 23 as the Flash. He served in the two biggest and most successful team books ever; Marv Wolfman's New Teen Titans and Grant Morrison's JLA. He also starred in the two most influential runs of Flash's standalone series under Mark Waid & Geoff Johns that establish everything that defines the character for modern readers, all of which is ripped off whole cloth for any Barry Allen appearances after his return in 2009. By every concievable metric, Wally West is the Flash.
But, admittedly, I never compared Wally to Bart, which brings me to why this comment is so funny, because the entire argument here is that Bart never got to be the Flash, and of course that's not true. Bart was aged up to an adult in 2006's Infinite Crisis and was made the Flash in an attempt to emulate the original Crisis. He was given his own Flash series which lasted 13 issues before he was uncerimonially killed off because everyone hated this take on the character. They brought back Wally and returned the series to it's original numbering.
LIke I said, you're welcome to your opinion. We're going to stick with Wally.
You are absolutely welcome to your opinion, and If you want to make Bart Allen your canon Flash in your Fan Timeline, then I'll be the first person to check it out. Personally, I've actually written pretty extensively about how Wally West is the definitive Flash... you can check it out here. I was comparing Wally to Barry, and basically my point was that while Barry has 29 years of history and an important role to play in the Satellite Era Justice League, most of his tenure as the Flash was in a mileau of silver age silliness. Wally has 26 years as Kid Flash, and then a further 23 as the Flash. He served in the two biggest and most successful team books ever; Marv Wolfman's New Teen Titans and Grant Morrison's JLA. He also starred in the two most influential runs of Flash's standalone series under Mark Waid & Geoff Johns that establish everything that defines the character for modern readers, all of which is ripped off whole cloth for any Barry Allen appearances after his return in 2009. By every concievable metric, Wally West is the Flash.
But, admittedly, I never compared Wally to Bart, which brings me to why this comment is so funny, because the entire argument here is that Bart never got to be the Flash, and of course that's not true. Bart was aged up to an adult in 2006's Infinite Crisis and was made the Flash in an attempt to emulate the original Crisis. He was given his own Flash series which lasted 13 issues before he was uncerimonially killed off because everyone hated this take on the character. They brought back Wally and returned the series to it's original numbering.
LIke I said, you're welcome to your opinion. We're going to stick with Wally.
~"So there seems to be a bunch of characters who you've developed a new appreciation for through his project, (Hawk and Dove, for example), but are there any characters who you've come to like less because of it? Like, the realization that they don't fit into your specific vision for the DC Universe kinda made them less appealing to you?"
Great Question!
I don't know if I'd say that there's anyone I like LESS... generally speaking, I think my experience is more that I realize I was doing all that extra work to include a character even though they don't really fit, so they stand out to me and make me see that I'm a fan of that character in a way that I wasn't aware of previously. Every time I come up with a reason to add Ryan Choi, ultimately I'm just adding him to add him... and there are a ton of strange series in the 80's like the Books of Magic that really twisted expectations that I never would have read if not for this project, none of which belong within a hundred miles of it.
There HAVE been a few circumstances where I realize that certain series have a lot more problematic content than I first realized? It doesn't really dissuade me from the CHARACTER, but it sometimes makes me less enthusiastic about a particular BOOK? I've owned all of Amethyst forever and always counted it as one of my all-time favorite comics, but I haven't actually read it in more than a decade. Boy howdy, it is not okay.
I don't know if I'd say that there's anyone I like LESS... generally speaking, I think my experience is more that I realize I was doing all that extra work to include a character even though they don't really fit, so they stand out to me and make me see that I'm a fan of that character in a way that I wasn't aware of previously. Every time I come up with a reason to add Ryan Choi, ultimately I'm just adding him to add him... and there are a ton of strange series in the 80's like the Books of Magic that really twisted expectations that I never would have read if not for this project, none of which belong within a hundred miles of it.
There HAVE been a few circumstances where I realize that certain series have a lot more problematic content than I first realized? It doesn't really dissuade me from the CHARACTER, but it sometimes makes me less enthusiastic about a particular BOOK? I've owned all of Amethyst forever and always counted it as one of my all-time favorite comics, but I haven't actually read it in more than a decade. Boy howdy, it is not okay.
~"Lex Luthor's Presidential Election was set in 2000 AD"
Thank you, we're aware. :)
We're building a new timeline without fixed dates, so it's not really relevant, but if we WERE using fixed dates then we'd probably use 2001, since Luthor's term ran from the real world inauguration of George W. Bush to his defeat in Superman/Batman issue #6 in March, 2004. Although you're absolutely correct, the storyline featuring his bid for office ran in 2000, when he would have been campaigning.
Against Al Gore, I assume?
We're building a new timeline without fixed dates, so it's not really relevant, but if we WERE using fixed dates then we'd probably use 2001, since Luthor's term ran from the real world inauguration of George W. Bush to his defeat in Superman/Batman issue #6 in March, 2004. Although you're absolutely correct, the storyline featuring his bid for office ran in 2000, when he would have been campaigning.
Against Al Gore, I assume?
~“in what world do guy and tora meet and date with a 12 year age gap and she’s only 20 and guy isnt murdered by beatriz?”
I know this wasn't meant as such a loaded question but.... whoa boy.
It definitely wasn't our intention to make this problematic; these ages just seemed to fit their specific stories, and there's nothing in the way they interact that suggested that they needed to be closer in age. Buuuut... we're all over 40, where dating someone plus or minus a decade means you're still dating a fellow adult. I guess we just missed the obvious problem if one of the people involved isn't even old enough to drink.
So I just went in and shifted Tora's age. I didn't want to make Tora TOO much older; she still needs to be younger than Beatriz, just to maintain their big/little sister dynamic. I think I updated all the mentions of her age, but if you find any inconsistencies, please let me know.
I just made her three years older to get their age gap to nine years. That means they meet when she is 23 and he's 32. Which is... yea, still a little eyebrow-raising, but at least everyone involved is an adult and able to make adult decisions. At least enough that Beatriz wouldn't feel compelled to step in.
Which, by the way, is probably all she'd do? She might say something in private to Tora, but as long as everyone involved is a grownup, I imagine Beatriz would be less worried about Guy's age and more concerned about the fact that he's a Jerk.
It definitely wasn't our intention to make this problematic; these ages just seemed to fit their specific stories, and there's nothing in the way they interact that suggested that they needed to be closer in age. Buuuut... we're all over 40, where dating someone plus or minus a decade means you're still dating a fellow adult. I guess we just missed the obvious problem if one of the people involved isn't even old enough to drink.
So I just went in and shifted Tora's age. I didn't want to make Tora TOO much older; she still needs to be younger than Beatriz, just to maintain their big/little sister dynamic. I think I updated all the mentions of her age, but if you find any inconsistencies, please let me know.
I just made her three years older to get their age gap to nine years. That means they meet when she is 23 and he's 32. Which is... yea, still a little eyebrow-raising, but at least everyone involved is an adult and able to make adult decisions. At least enough that Beatriz wouldn't feel compelled to step in.
Which, by the way, is probably all she'd do? She might say something in private to Tora, but as long as everyone involved is a grownup, I imagine Beatriz would be less worried about Guy's age and more concerned about the fact that he's a Jerk.
~ "Looking at pages as big and detailed it's funny to spot the parts that will inevitably get fleshed out more as the project expands. In this case Dick's had a very busy life, constantly dealing with super-criminals, adoptive family drama and relationship conflicts...except for his second year as Robin, where, for the moment at least, he did absolutely nothing of note. It's not a complaint or anything, just a mildly amusing thing that I notice every time I reread through this page that I figured I'd comment on."
The wild thing is that it might actually stay that way.
Every character starts as a very bare outline as we isolate the basic story elements that need to be there. if you look at characters that we've already created pages for but who aren't major characters, you'll probably see what we mean. What makes the character's timeline really flesh out and fill up is when other characters interact with them, and I need to start filling out all the cross-references. So the more central a character is, the more cross references they'll get, and longer the timeline is. Characters that interact with more teams (and other characters) have longer timelines.
In Dick's case, most of the Batman Family, the Titans, and the Watchtower are all ready in place. Most of the Batman villain's are already there, and the Titans villains are probably going to get cross-referenced to the team rather than to specific members. So Nightwing's page, unless we come up with some major changes down the line, is pretty much locked in.
But that just means there were no major changes in the status quo. Robin's second year was basically just spent swinging from rooftops, naming the Batmobile, punching henchman while quipping, and not wearing pants.
Every character starts as a very bare outline as we isolate the basic story elements that need to be there. if you look at characters that we've already created pages for but who aren't major characters, you'll probably see what we mean. What makes the character's timeline really flesh out and fill up is when other characters interact with them, and I need to start filling out all the cross-references. So the more central a character is, the more cross references they'll get, and longer the timeline is. Characters that interact with more teams (and other characters) have longer timelines.
In Dick's case, most of the Batman Family, the Titans, and the Watchtower are all ready in place. Most of the Batman villain's are already there, and the Titans villains are probably going to get cross-referenced to the team rather than to specific members. So Nightwing's page, unless we come up with some major changes down the line, is pretty much locked in.
But that just means there were no major changes in the status quo. Robin's second year was basically just spent swinging from rooftops, naming the Batmobile, punching henchman while quipping, and not wearing pants.
~ "Time travel's a tricky beast. Marvel has the "new timeline is created but old one still exists...." DC works best with stable timeloop and san dimas time (i.e the change is so utterly insignificant no one's really going to press the issue. Sorta like how in 52 Booster steals the warhead....but because a.) it wouldn't work and b.) adam would have lost anyway no one's really going to press it."
It's rough, because time travel is such a staple of genre fiction. Marvel really doesn't have this problem; it thrives when it's stories are madcap and contradictory. Personally, I think it comes down to strong editorial oversight. Marvel, whether by luck or design, had a solid system in place that allowed different books and writers to reference or ignore each other in a way that always felt like a fertile ground for new ideas. DC's strength has always been it's dense, well-established mythology, but that has to make it harder to make sure everyone is on the same page. It's absolutely happened; when the internal consistency of DC's mythology moved like clockwork... but you just can't maintain it when you're resetting your timeline in new crossovers every ten to fifteen years.
~ "I didn't mind the idea of final crisis. ALL Things must end eventually and while there were a few good things in the 90s there were also elements that were painfully stupid (just like New 52. A few ideas like the court of owls were fantastic but unfortunately there were also downright pants on head idiotic elements too.)"
I absolutely agree that Final Crisis was fantastic. I'm a huge Grant Morrison fanboy, and it was amazing watching them essentially write the literal end of the DC Universe.
BUT... that story really doesn't belong in the mainstream continuity. I love that it exists, but I certainly wouldn't include it here. Having the New Gods come to earth and participate in the stories happening here is cool if you do it sparingly (like in Tom King's Mister Miracle miniseries), but I very much prefer not to have the larger stories of the Fourth World happen on earth because the scope is so widely different. When the actual in-continuity tale of the fall of the New Gods is told, I'd want it to happen in THEIR world, not here.
Of course, as a child of the 80's and 90's, I'm very much in favor of the concept of elseworlds comics. I love stories like Final Crisis or Dark Metal or Kingdom Come... just... stop trying to make them be part of the regular continuity. Let them stand on their own.
BUT... that story really doesn't belong in the mainstream continuity. I love that it exists, but I certainly wouldn't include it here. Having the New Gods come to earth and participate in the stories happening here is cool if you do it sparingly (like in Tom King's Mister Miracle miniseries), but I very much prefer not to have the larger stories of the Fourth World happen on earth because the scope is so widely different. When the actual in-continuity tale of the fall of the New Gods is told, I'd want it to happen in THEIR world, not here.
Of course, as a child of the 80's and 90's, I'm very much in favor of the concept of elseworlds comics. I love stories like Final Crisis or Dark Metal or Kingdom Come... just... stop trying to make them be part of the regular continuity. Let them stand on their own.
~ "I'm a big fan of your website and I especially like how you handled Hal Jordan, though I am happy that his questionable romance with Arisia has nearly been forgotten.
I understand that you believe that character death should be final, however one of my favorite stories in the comics was when Hal Jordan was merged with the Spectre and tried to push him towards being a spirit of redemption, rather than vengeance.
I feel like this would still work as Hal Jordan would still technically be dead and being the Spectre would become his penance, not allowed to see his friends and loved ones, while trying to convert villains to heroes. I think it could work either way.
Regardless, you are doing great work."
I understand that you believe that character death should be final, however one of my favorite stories in the comics was when Hal Jordan was merged with the Spectre and tried to push him towards being a spirit of redemption, rather than vengeance.
I feel like this would still work as Hal Jordan would still technically be dead and being the Spectre would become his penance, not allowed to see his friends and loved ones, while trying to convert villains to heroes. I think it could work either way.
Regardless, you are doing great work."
Thanks for the feedback! I don't know if you can tell by the sheer number of times I say it on this website, but the evolution of the Green Lantern mythology is a huge part of why I started this project to being with. I'm an unabashed 90's kid, and I really do think that Hal's downfall serves the larger narrative in a way that his return simply doesn't.
I ALSO happen to agree that his time serving as the Spectre was a pretty cool redemptive arc. So to answer why we didn't use it... It's two reasons, really. First, it's the fact that I wasn't actually planning on redeeming Hal. Once you make that decision (which was a big decision, let me tell you...) Then redemptive arcs, even really cool ones, become kind of vestigial.
The second is that, while it did give Hal something cool to do after he died, the truth is that it doesn't actually serve to evolve the overall story of DC in a meaningful way. This sort of thing, where a story come up that give a particular character something cool to do but that don't serve the larger mythology, actually happens a LOT in superhero comics, and this is a great example. Hal gets to spend some time as the Spectre, but the Spectre was already a thing. While this story is cool for Hal it reduces the Spectre from an unknowable and terrifying force of the universe to a dude that everyone used to hang out with. It's minimizing the conceptual space of one character in order to give another character more screen time. Given that Hal's contribution to our larger narrative is already SO huge, and that our plans don't include his redemption actually going anywhere, It was clear that the better path was just to keep the characters separate.
As usual, though, I'm always happy to entertain new perspectives on these stories that we might not have considered before. If a reason can be found (or invented) to make Hal's time as the Spectre useful (beyond just the fact that you and I would like to see it), then this can absolutely be revisited. Just... bear in mind... The Spectre already exists, and is already cool.
Also, I'm glad you approved of our take on the relationship with Arisia. Lord knows that was a tricky one.
I ALSO happen to agree that his time serving as the Spectre was a pretty cool redemptive arc. So to answer why we didn't use it... It's two reasons, really. First, it's the fact that I wasn't actually planning on redeeming Hal. Once you make that decision (which was a big decision, let me tell you...) Then redemptive arcs, even really cool ones, become kind of vestigial.
The second is that, while it did give Hal something cool to do after he died, the truth is that it doesn't actually serve to evolve the overall story of DC in a meaningful way. This sort of thing, where a story come up that give a particular character something cool to do but that don't serve the larger mythology, actually happens a LOT in superhero comics, and this is a great example. Hal gets to spend some time as the Spectre, but the Spectre was already a thing. While this story is cool for Hal it reduces the Spectre from an unknowable and terrifying force of the universe to a dude that everyone used to hang out with. It's minimizing the conceptual space of one character in order to give another character more screen time. Given that Hal's contribution to our larger narrative is already SO huge, and that our plans don't include his redemption actually going anywhere, It was clear that the better path was just to keep the characters separate.
As usual, though, I'm always happy to entertain new perspectives on these stories that we might not have considered before. If a reason can be found (or invented) to make Hal's time as the Spectre useful (beyond just the fact that you and I would like to see it), then this can absolutely be revisited. Just... bear in mind... The Spectre already exists, and is already cool.
Also, I'm glad you approved of our take on the relationship with Arisia. Lord knows that was a tricky one.
~ "Who IS Superboy's dad? Before Lex it was the head of Cadmus. Either one works honestly."
Well I guess the question becomes... If either one is fine, then why does it even matter? Writers love to try to impose new drama on characters with dramatic reveals of their parentage or secret blood relations, but I actually maintain that that's writing backward instead of writing forward. Retroactively altering the fundamental idea of who characters are HAS worked occasionally, but only when the character in their original state wasn't working. Superboy already works. He's a half-human clone grown by Cadmus using Superman's DNA... and that's really all the information we had, or needed. The other creations of Cadmus don't have parentage, they're just creations of the project, so why does Connor need it? The idea that he had Lex's DNA was a story designed to drum up intrigue, and I don't think these characters specifically or DC as a whole were made better for it.
~ "Maybe once she wraps up her studies she could move to New Zealand like her animated counterpart? If she's going to be a solo hero, she may as well do it somewhere that doesn't have a hero already guarding it, plus it's fairly common for young adults to completely relocate themselves to feel more independent, so it narratively makes sense for the direction her character's going."
I suppose that's possible, if you really want her to be in New Zeeland. We didn't really spend a lot of energy trying to incorporate the animated version of Argent, because she's really her own thing rather than an interpretation of the comic character. She's certainly cool... (that show was such a gateway for goth kids, wasn't it?) but I think the point of her being from New Zeeland was that she was FROM New Zeeland. She didn't just live there at the moment, she was a born and bred Kiwi. Still, there's no reason a character like Argent couldn't explore the world during her solo series, and maybe make a few lasting friendships out that way.
~ "Okay, so I do really like most of this, but I'm not a fan of using the Caitlin Snow name in place of Crystal Frost. The way I see it, mixing around names like this just ends up causing brand confusion, especially if the property is relatively obscure like Killer Frost is.
Crystal is the Tragic Villain, Louise is the Delightfully Psychotic Villain and Caitlin is the Redeemable Villain. DC's done a surprisingly good job keeping them distinctly separate so far (this is the company that made concepts as simple as Hawkman & Hawkwoman seem complicated and convoluted, so my expectations for them are set pretty low for the most part), so it's best to keep them that way.
Yeah, it's a pretty minor thing to get bothered by, but I figured I'd mention it just because DC has a history of mixing up and messing around with certain brands to the point where it's hard to distinguish between them (once again I point to the Hawks), and that sort of thing is just really frustrating for me.
I apologise in advance if any of this came across as too antagonistic; I love all the work that's gone into crafting this universe and appreciate how much time and effort it must take to do all of this, but I just personally believe that her original name should be used instead of Caitlin's."
Crystal is the Tragic Villain, Louise is the Delightfully Psychotic Villain and Caitlin is the Redeemable Villain. DC's done a surprisingly good job keeping them distinctly separate so far (this is the company that made concepts as simple as Hawkman & Hawkwoman seem complicated and convoluted, so my expectations for them are set pretty low for the most part), so it's best to keep them that way.
Yeah, it's a pretty minor thing to get bothered by, but I figured I'd mention it just because DC has a history of mixing up and messing around with certain brands to the point where it's hard to distinguish between them (once again I point to the Hawks), and that sort of thing is just really frustrating for me.
I apologise in advance if any of this came across as too antagonistic; I love all the work that's gone into crafting this universe and appreciate how much time and effort it must take to do all of this, but I just personally believe that her original name should be used instead of Caitlin's."
I really love this comment, because it's so specifically "classic fan" vs "modern fan".
I totally agree that DC has done a really good (maybe even uncharacteristically good) job keeping the three different Killer Frosts separate. For a long-time fan, the distinction between them is clear, comfortable, and actually kind of reassuring, because it's so out of the ordinary. From that perspective... I totally agree. It would have been the best choice to simply pick one of the three existing characters and run with that.
My thought process went something like this: we're not doing multiple Killer Frosts. that seems pretty straightforward: one of the most basic changes we're doing overall is stripping the whole timeline of unnecessary duplication of characters. We're also not picking just one character... we're building one that fulfills the same narrative role that all versions of the character have filled.
While to some old school fans like you and me there's a clear difference between those characters, we're not including that distinction, so there was no reason we couldn't use this more classic take on the character and just give her the new name. It's just a case of cherry picking qualities from all three characters into our one version. We could just as easily have called her Louise if we wanted to, but most casual fans recognize Caitlyn Snow. It's the name choice that does the most service to the character, and by extension the whole mythology. That's literally the entire thought process.
Now, if our goal was to accurately recreate existing comic continuity, then you would be 100% right... it would be vital that we keep the three versions of the character distinct and separate. That's just a different project. I've met people doing that, btw, and it always blows my mind.
I totally agree that DC has done a really good (maybe even uncharacteristically good) job keeping the three different Killer Frosts separate. For a long-time fan, the distinction between them is clear, comfortable, and actually kind of reassuring, because it's so out of the ordinary. From that perspective... I totally agree. It would have been the best choice to simply pick one of the three existing characters and run with that.
My thought process went something like this: we're not doing multiple Killer Frosts. that seems pretty straightforward: one of the most basic changes we're doing overall is stripping the whole timeline of unnecessary duplication of characters. We're also not picking just one character... we're building one that fulfills the same narrative role that all versions of the character have filled.
While to some old school fans like you and me there's a clear difference between those characters, we're not including that distinction, so there was no reason we couldn't use this more classic take on the character and just give her the new name. It's just a case of cherry picking qualities from all three characters into our one version. We could just as easily have called her Louise if we wanted to, but most casual fans recognize Caitlyn Snow. It's the name choice that does the most service to the character, and by extension the whole mythology. That's literally the entire thought process.
Now, if our goal was to accurately recreate existing comic continuity, then you would be 100% right... it would be vital that we keep the three versions of the character distinct and separate. That's just a different project. I've met people doing that, btw, and it always blows my mind.
~ "Wow, this project is awesome. This is what I needed to take my mind off of the quarantine.
Although, forgive me if this seems like a dumb question, but it's a legitimate query: Why are the trinity (Supes, Bats and Wondy) not founding members of the JL?"
Although, forgive me if this seems like a dumb question, but it's a legitimate query: Why are the trinity (Supes, Bats and Wondy) not founding members of the JL?"
Glad you're enjoying it, It's even more fun to build :)
That's a great question! It's a throwback to the post-Crisis era of DC comics, or at least that era as I understood it. Superman & Batman, famously, didn't show up on the cover of the classic Justice League of America series very often, and often weren't present in the stories. (there's apparently an old precedent for that; back when the main team-up book was All-Star Squadron, there was an editorial edict that characters starring in their own comics wouldn't be featured characters in the team's book.) Because of this, when there were references to the founding members of the League, in general what you saw was Barry, Hal, Arthur, Diana, and J'onn. Diana's story was then retold during George Perez's run, making her basically unable to serve as a founding member anymore, so Dinah was put into that position retroactively.
So the big three essentially joined the League a little bit later in their history, but of course, their membership came to define the team. Obviously that's changed in the years since then, but that's still the framework I enjoy the most. Having the League exist before the inclusion of the big three sets a precedent that it can thrive without them, and that's something that the continuity often needs.
That's a great question! It's a throwback to the post-Crisis era of DC comics, or at least that era as I understood it. Superman & Batman, famously, didn't show up on the cover of the classic Justice League of America series very often, and often weren't present in the stories. (there's apparently an old precedent for that; back when the main team-up book was All-Star Squadron, there was an editorial edict that characters starring in their own comics wouldn't be featured characters in the team's book.) Because of this, when there were references to the founding members of the League, in general what you saw was Barry, Hal, Arthur, Diana, and J'onn. Diana's story was then retold during George Perez's run, making her basically unable to serve as a founding member anymore, so Dinah was put into that position retroactively.
So the big three essentially joined the League a little bit later in their history, but of course, their membership came to define the team. Obviously that's changed in the years since then, but that's still the framework I enjoy the most. Having the League exist before the inclusion of the big three sets a precedent that it can thrive without them, and that's something that the continuity often needs.
~ "Just stumbled on this site, I'm a huge DC fan and I'm really loving this and unknowingly spent over an hour just pouring over a lot of the changes. Time flew by me. This is a worthy labor of love and respect and I tip my cap to you. My three favorite DC heroes are Aquaman, Hawkman, and the Wesley Dodds Sandman, so I was incredibly glad to see all of them done justice here as part of the timeline!"
Hey, thanks! Those are three characters we made some pretty big choices for, and personally I'm very proud of how they're handled here, so it's awesome to get the seal of approval from a fan! I think you posted this right before I updated Hawkman's page, so hopefully you'll get a chance to check him out again. I've always loved characters that showed potential but who just needed some love, and for most of my formative comic reading years Hawkman was the poster boy for that, so he's always had a special place in my heart.
~ "If you guys don't mind me asking, how is the Marvel Continuity Project that you hinted at doing a few years back coming along? I know that it's not going to be released to the public for a long time, since between all the planning that goes into a project as big as it and the primary focus being on the DCCP anyway it's not realistic to expect it for at least another couple of years , but it would be cool to get a little update on how far you've gotten in the planning process since it was first announced."
Thank you for asking, it's cool that you noticed! Yes, we ARE playing with a Marvel continuity. The entire DC timeline is, for the most part, finished; it's a matter of transposing it entirely into the website, but of course I also like to write quite a bit about every character as I add them, and the timeline itself gets edited and updated all the time, so for the forseeable future, this is where most of our energy is going to be.
The Marvel continuity is still in its very early stages. It's more a fun thing to talk about while hanging out; conversations about what we like, what we don't like, and what we would change, the same way the DC Continuity Project started. There are lists of characters, spreadsheets breaking down team lineups and how they change over the years, and some basic timelines for the major players like the X-Men, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four and the like. Marvel has a much more chaotic way of building out it's stories and plays pretty fast-and-loose with it's internal continuity, so there's a lot to play with. Also the characters basically live right on top of each other; we find that we never manage to do much work on any one character without building whole google docs of notes for a half-dozen other characters. In short, it is a lot of fun. I have the model of having built the DCCP website (thank you for the abbreviation!), so the transition over from work in progress into something shareable will probably be much smoother... but as you said, it'll likely be years before you see the Marvel Continuity Project.
The Marvel continuity is still in its very early stages. It's more a fun thing to talk about while hanging out; conversations about what we like, what we don't like, and what we would change, the same way the DC Continuity Project started. There are lists of characters, spreadsheets breaking down team lineups and how they change over the years, and some basic timelines for the major players like the X-Men, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four and the like. Marvel has a much more chaotic way of building out it's stories and plays pretty fast-and-loose with it's internal continuity, so there's a lot to play with. Also the characters basically live right on top of each other; we find that we never manage to do much work on any one character without building whole google docs of notes for a half-dozen other characters. In short, it is a lot of fun. I have the model of having built the DCCP website (thank you for the abbreviation!), so the transition over from work in progress into something shareable will probably be much smoother... but as you said, it'll likely be years before you see the Marvel Continuity Project.
~ "Is everything in this timeline canon to the comics?"
Nope!
It would be a very different project if it tried to make sense out of nothing but actual cannon content, since actual cannon is pretty self-contradictory. Personally, I imagine that most fans actually do versions of this in their own minds; making connections that don't actually exist that help explain the parts of the story that you like, even if they don't usually fit. This is just that... over a long time, with a lot more energy, and research, and probably a little obsession.
It would be a very different project if it tried to make sense out of nothing but actual cannon content, since actual cannon is pretty self-contradictory. Personally, I imagine that most fans actually do versions of this in their own minds; making connections that don't actually exist that help explain the parts of the story that you like, even if they don't usually fit. This is just that... over a long time, with a lot more energy, and research, and probably a little obsession.